1 Corinthians—Revelation with Shawn & Nathan

Nathan (: 00:02

Hey, it's Nathan and Shawn again. We want to welcome you back to the 13-week Bible season two. We're in episode 14, ahead of week 13's reading. Believe it or not, this is the final episode of this season. We hope you've decided to read or listen through the entire Bible yourself. That's the whole purpose of our conversations to kind of help encourage and facilitate that process a bit for you.

pring group read, and this is: 2024

your own non-group read through our 13-week basic course. And so we hope you'll do that. You can start any time. Today we're wrapping up the rest of the Bible as we preview 2 Corinthians. All right, here we go, Sean. Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2, and 3 John.

Shawn (: 01:21

Whoa...

Thanks for watching!

Nathan (: 01:29

Jude and Revelation. That's a record, Sean. We're previewing a whopping 20 books of scripture in a single week's read and a single podcast, which will take us all the way to the end of the Bible. In this final episode, we'll again skip the recap portion and jump right into our conversation. So we beat our Old Testament or pre-Jesus record by several books with 20 in a single sitting.

Shawn (: 01:32

Hahaha.

Wow.

We're going to give one minute to each book. Go!

Nathan (: 02:03

Just about. Yeah.

Shawn (: 02:08

It kind of reminds me of traveling in the northeastern United States. You can go through like six states in the span of like four hours. Anyway. Yeah. Mm.

Nathan (: 02:17

Right, yeah, you get it right, yes. But there's content here. We are talking about some small single-page books, Jude, Philemon, the Epistles of John, all of those are very short books, but make important points that are important and very powerful if you sit and think about them, which will come to them.

Shawn (: 02:28

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 02:43

Second Corinthians, we're gonna start there. Second Corinthians, stand out chapter or chapters for you in Second Corinthians.

Shawn (: 02:51

Oh, well, I mean, basically chapters three through five are really powerful to me. Paul is talking about the New Covenant in chapter three, and I'll jump over chapter four even though I said it, but chapter five is at one point one of my favorite passages in scripture is there where Paul talks about what motivates him to ministry.

Nathan (: 03:00

Mmm.

Hmm.

Shawn (: 03:18

And Paul in this book is largely talking about his own ministry and he's in some ways, I don't want to say trying to justify his own ministry, but he is just giving, you know, reason for why he does what he does. And chapter five, just this beautiful, the love of Christ compels us. And he talks about what gives him inspiration and motivation.

Nathan (: 03:22

Hmm.

Mmm.

Shawn (: 03:45

beautiful ministry of reconciliation where God has given him and us this ministry of reconciliation where we're inviting people into the family of God and to be reconciled to God and to be reconciled to one another and all of that is

Nathan (: 03:48

Yes.

So isn't that right along the theme you mentioned in our last podcast, this theme of people coming together and living in harmony? And isn't that another instance of this theme, this reconciling to God, the result would be reconciliation with others who are interested in being reconciled to God?

Shawn (: 04:09

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, that is exactly how it goes, Nathan, and like you say, the Gospels kind of give a picture of what a life of love looks like, and a lot of Paul's writing kind of focused on the root of how we get there, and basically his answer is it's the Jesus message.

Nathan (: 04:40

Mmmm

Shawn (: 04:53

that bring reconciliation when we're reconciled to God, you know, the vertical, it allows us to be reconciled to one another because we, and this is one of the parts I love. It says, because we judged us that if one died for all, then all died. And those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, verse 16 of 2 Corinthians 5, we, from now on, we regard.

Nathan (: 04:53

Hmm.

Shawn (: 05:22

no one according to the flesh. In other words, we recognize God doesn't stand in judgment towards us. That gives us permission to not stand in judgment towards others. We don't look at them like we used to look at them. We don't look at people and consider their outward appearance, their status in life, their educational attainment. We don't hold their.

Nathan (: 05:24

Hmm.

Shawn (: 05:49

against them because God doesn't hold our sin against us and so that's what brings the reconciliation.

Nathan (: 05:51

Hmm

Yeah, so we don't talk a lot of application as y'all have noticed, but Sean, I have to say, Paul's only talking about people in church, right? They don't, they don't.

Shawn (: 06:07

Oh yeah, we can judge other people outside the church as much as we want and please have free reign. That's actually what Paul, he says the opposite. He says the opposite in the previous letter to the Corinthians. He's like, we don't judge the world, we judge ourselves. And so anyway, I mean, he doesn't mean let's be judging and condemning towards others. What he's saying is we need to, you know, kind of.

Nathan (: 06:13

I'm sorry.

He does!

Right. Hmm.

Right.

Shawn (: 06:36

sweep our own side of the street and not worry about those people out there.

Nathan (: 06:41

So love radically, love wildly, and the critique, if you want to say, is the critique of the church itself to rise to the highest standard of radical love.

Shawn (: 06:44

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, he was not advocating we go around and we judge our fellow Christians sitting next to us and pointing fingers at them. What he's saying is collectively, let's aim for a higher standards. So but yeah.

Nathan (: 07:05

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, he uses this language of letter writing that human beings are this letter written. And so they're right, there is a sense, and this is sort of what you were getting at in the Jesus story, that Jesus lives out this radical story of God's love, right? He lives it. There's theology talked about, but he lives it. And then in the...

Shawn (: 07:18

Mmm, we are the epistle.

Nathan (: 07:39

In Paul's writings, Paul's kind of giving the theological argument for getting to that place. I'm trying to just keep my thoughts here. So I lost my train of thought just for a second there. Do you know where I was going?

Shawn (: 07:56

I don't, I was distracted by the noise I heard in your room.

Nathan (: 07:59

Yes, yeah, I might have to, I'll say I might have to pull that out. But the idea is that it all comes down to a practical reality of loving radically, and that the church, here's where I was going, that the church is the letter in the sense, like Jesus was the letter, the church is this letter to the human family of what life with God is like.

Shawn (: 08:21

Mmm.

Beautiful.

Nathan (: 08:28

And that's why Paul writes the epistles. That's why God was so determined to try to correct the story of his people in the pre-Jesus story. It's because they were the ones carrying the story of God to the world. They had the insider insight, not for themselves, but to carry the story and experience of God to the world. That same theme continues here in these books in the Jesus story.

Shawn (: 08:54

Hmm. Yeah.

Nathan (: 08:58

post Ascension story.

Shawn (: 08:59

Beautiful. I think our one minute is up of 2nd Corinthians. Ha ha ha.

Nathan (: 09:02

That's okay. One more piece to keep an eye on. Chapter 12 has this incredible exchange where Paul is struggling with an unresolved issue in his life. He asks God for deliverance and God's answer is, Paul, my grace is enough for you to live with it. And so Paul says, kind of a big shift. He stops praying about it.

Shawn (: 09:07

Mmm, yes. Yes, yes.

Mm.

Mmm.

Nathan (: 09:31

And he says, okay, I'm going to celebrate because when I'm weak, Jesus shows up in a big way.

Shawn (: 09:34

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, absolutely. I was hoping you were going to point that one out as well, because that is a beautiful, beautiful part of Paul's reflections.

Nathan (: 09:49

Yeah, so we're on to Galatians. And by the way, to listeners, if you hear a little bit of sound, I've got a friend who's, who's come in and, um, had to move a couple of things. Um, anyway, so Galatians, incredible book. I'm going to take the first stab at this one just cause I want to. And I'd love your feedback. My last sort of detailed reflection through Galatians, the, um, the conclusion I came to is.

Shawn (: 09:51

Oh, big one.

Oh, oh, take, take it in.

Nathan (: 10:19

is simply this, that Paul was not focused on how people are forgiven. Oftentimes you think about the justification side of things and in the Christian theological circle, whether you're familiar with that or not, a long terms of am I forgiven or not, how am I forgiven, and this theological or justification is about being forgiven, being right with God.

as I went through Galatians last time was that Paul was not fixated on that point. His point was, how do people become lovers like God loves? How do people become like God in who they are? And I feel like this comes through strong by the time we get to chapter 5 because Paul says the fruits of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

And then he lists these attributes of goodness and kindness and patience, etc. that come into the believer's life who is living by faith in Jesus. That was a frame shift for me, kind of a perspective shift, seeing Paul primarily focused on the transformative power of the gospel.

not on the legal implications of the gospel. And we probably won't get into any significant discussion on that. But that was an important piece. I don't know if you see that in the book, but I'll give you a shot at it.

Shawn (: 11:53

A thousand percent, Nathan. I love it. I'll put it this way. And you probably will not be surprised that I'll put it this way. But what I see Paul basically doing in Galatians and through many of his books is answering the question, how can we figure out a way to all sit at the same table together? This is what he's doing with Peter. Peter is a hypocrite. He's not willing to sit at the table with the Gentiles when

Nathan (: 12:14

Hmm.

Shawn (: 12:22

the Jewish leaders are observing him or their spies are observing him. And Paul is saying, listen, we're all in one family. How can we sit at the table together in fellowship and in mutual respect and love? And Galatians is just, like you say, working out the way that can be achieved. So yeah, I'm supplementing what you say. I'm agreeing with what you say, just putting it in a little different metaphor, perhaps.

Nathan (: 12:38

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and it reminds me of Jesus' words, the last of kind of the principles in the, what we often call the Beatitudes, blessed are the peacemakers. So Paul is essentially articulating the theology as he understands it of how human beings can live at peace and make peace in the world around them. Obviously, there's limits to that which we could talk about because of this struggle

Shawn (: 13:16

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 13:22

with supernatural forces and human forces, but the gospel is this powerful

Shawn (: 13:24

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 13:31

Boy, now I just, I don't even know what words to use next, but it is the, it's power, let's just leave it, it's the power, right? And that how to access that power and experience its transformative work. I gotta share my favorite scripture, and then we have to move on to the next book. And this is,

Shawn (: 13:37

Power, as Paul says, is the power of God.

Beautiful.

Mm.

Nathan (: 13:57

And I say favorite, it actually may be my favorite scripture in all of scripture. And now that I've said that, I just have to locate it here. And this is Galatians 5.5. Through the Spirit by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. So as human beings, we can get stressed out and anxious.

try all kinds of religious formulas and self-help formulas to be good people, but Paul's idea is that the follower of Jesus lives in eager waiting on the Holy Spirit to do the work of making us beautiful people. I love that imagery of patience, of eager anticipation, of deep faith that God can do his work in us.

Shawn (: 14:40

Hmm

Nathan (: 14:58

So that's probably my favorite picture. So Ephesians actually has that in chapter two, kind of the same idea. Ephesians two, and I guess I'll, I'm gonna actually let you start. You take the first stab at Ephesians.

Shawn (: 14:58

Love it.

Mm.

No, I'm, yeah, Ephesians, as we kind of alluded to in the last episode, kind of has a cosmic context in many ways, where especially Ephesians 3 talks about how there are these principalities and powers and heavenly places who are observing, apparently, God's people. They're observing the way that we relate to one another. And Paul makes this, presumably Paul, there is.

Nathan (: 15:19

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Shawn (: 15:40

as to whether this was really written by Paul, but we won't go into that. I don't want to scandalize our listeners. I believe it was written by Paul. But that God is making his wisdom known through the church. Like there's this plan that God's been working on all along, and what it is is, as we talked about, the Jews and Gentiles coming together and living this radical

Nathan (: 15:54

Hmm.

Shawn (: 16:07

to use your phrase, Nathan, love-shaped life together. And it was really something that had never been tried before in human history, where people from different backgrounds, socioeconomic, ethnic, et cetera, were being brought into one family together, and their ability, by God's grace, to live together in reconciled lives.

Nathan (: 16:11

Hmm.

Mm.

Shawn (: 16:35

was apparently according to Paul a message or a picture of God's love that was being broadcast, if you will, to the entire universe, which is just the whole interesting rabbit trail. I mean, I don't know if it's much of a rabbit trail because it's kind of the big story, if you will, of Scripture. It is the story, but just, yeah, this context for the whole story of

Nathan (: 16:48

Hmm.

Right, it's the big story.

Right.

Shawn (: 17:02

of God's cosmic intent through his people.

Nathan (: 17:06

It would only be a rabbit trail on this episode because we don't have time. But in the big scheme of things, it's no rabbit trail. As you were talking, I was getting really excited because the truth is, as I see it, the point of scripture is to restore human beings to living in sustainable society, to living as a sustainable civilization.

Shawn (: 17:13

Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 17:37

They were other pieces to the story, but the end goal, when you go all the way back to the Genesis story, selfishness comes in, self-interest comes in through Adam and Eve buying into the rebellion. And you can go back and read that story if you've forgotten it. And the Gospel project is restoring human beings to live in a peaceful,

Shawn (: 17:47

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 18:05

harmonious civilization for eternity future. That's the goal. Is that too simplified, Sean?

Shawn (: 18:10

Mm-hmm. Yep. No, I love it. I love it. I love it. By the way, Ephesians and Colossians, there's a lot of overlap and similarities. I'm not saying that means we have to jump over Colossians, but there's a lot of similar themes there. But yeah.

Nathan (: 18:30

Yes, so we do need to move, probably move into Philippians. Yes, it's hard with these small books, but Philippians, what would you say is your highlight from Philippians?

Shawn (: 18:35

Rapid fire. Yeah.

Beautiful. The highlight for me is the all-encompassing nature of knowing Jesus. Paul goes down his list of his accomplishments and he says, it's all rubbish compared to knowing Jesus. And that's for me, I mean of course there's so much more in this book. This is actually probably the first book of the Bible that I ever actually really spent time with and it's what drew me into scripture. I was given a Bible when I was 17.

Nathan (: 18:48

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Shawn (: 19:10

or 16 by my parents and I thought, oh man, this is a terrible birthday present. And I opened it up and said, well, I'm going to read Philippians. And it just drew me in. So I love Philippians. I don't want to minimize the importance of it. But yeah, just the reality of knowing Jesus. Everything else, according to Paul, is meaningless and rubbish compared to knowing Jesus. So I love that.

Nathan (: 19:34

Yes, and the ethical theme that you mentioned earlier comes up again because Paul doesn't just say knowing Jesus, but he in this beautiful recap of the sacrificial love of Jesus, he says, be like Jesus in short, right, and he.

Shawn (: 19:42

Mm-hmm.

I don't want to forget that one, yeah.

lower and lower sorry

Nathan (: 20:00

No, that's right, he did. And he holds it up to the church and says, this is how you love each other, like Jesus loved you.

Shawn (: 20:08

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, beautiful, beautiful.

Nathan (: 20:14

Philippians has another famous verse, at least in my circles, Philippians 1, 6. I'm sure of this. He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. A very, again, God-centered salvation idea. We don't pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. God is working in us. We can trust him to keep.

Shawn (: 20:21

Mm.

Nathan (: 20:43

doing that work and to bring it to completion. Any other passages from Philippians that you'd want to point us to, Sean?

Shawn (: 20:51

There are so many Nathan, but I'm keeping my eye on the clock because I know we have some big books Still to cover

Nathan (: 20:57

We do, yeah. So Colossians, we're gonna, I think we will go, just highlight Colossians three, a beautiful call at the opening lines of that chapter to the new man that we are in Christ. And so good words there.

Shawn (: 21:07

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

We put on love, which he says is the bond of perfection, which is beautiful.

Nathan (: 21:25

Yes.

Again, that, yes, same theme coming up over and over and over again. By the way, Ephesians has a couple of magnificent prayers by Paul, one earlier in the book, one later in the book, great model prayers to kind of, um, just include and learn from for your own prayer life.

Shawn (: 21:33

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And of course Colossians, going back to that, highlights the supremacy of Christ and his place as a divine agent who was the great revelation of God. So man, so much here Nathan, we could spend 20 years on just single books.

Nathan (: 21:56

Mm-hmm.

Hmm

Yes, excuse me, yes. And then we have the first Thessalonians letter. It is one of two. Second Thessalonians is the shorter one. The big theme for me and first Thessalonians is probably what comes later in the book. It's the one that I'm most useful, most accustomed to is this these lines from the fourth chapter.

Shawn (: 22:36

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 22:40

about the resurrection and the return of Jesus.

Shawn (: 22:45

Mmm, mmm, beautiful. Beautiful.

Nathan (: 22:49

then you'll also find the last chapter has several words of exhortation, which I notice as you go through these letters that Paul writes that he often includes, sometimes at the end of the book, he'll include a note to another believer in this church. Sometimes he'll include a greeting from the community of believers that he's writing from. And he'll also include some just kind of

Shawn (: 23:06

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 23:18

short statements about corrections needed or encouragement to live in a certain way, and you find several of those. One of them in this First Thessalonians, Pray Without Ceasing, one that's maybe more familiar to a wider audience, that is found here in First Thessalonians. Yes, another one.

Shawn (: 23:32

Mm-hmm.

And rejoice always. Yeah.

Nathan (: 23:44

Second Thessalonians, big theme here, what would you say?

Shawn (: 23:50

Oh man, Paul is kind of giving just some words of warning to be on the lookout for those who are trying to counteract the gospel. And there evidently also was some people who are trying to say that Christ had already returned and Paul is saying, whoa, there's stuff that kind of needs to go down before that can happen. And he talks about this quote unquote.

Nathan (: 23:55

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Hmm

Shawn (: 24:18

you know, man of sin, son of perdition, and just, you know, those are parts that some have connected with themes that come up in Revelation as well, where there are people who are trying to counteract the gospel. And this is just something that we need to be aware of as well.

Nathan (: 24:21

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So then we're at Timothy, and Timothy is actually two separate letters written to, Paul refers to him as his son. This is son in the sense of Paul has taken this young man under his wing, and this is an up-and-coming church leader who's engaged in ministry. We might call him a pastor.

Shawn (: 24:47

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 25:10

Timothy, the two letters I should say of Timothy are written to this young man encouraging, exhorting, educating him from a distance to be faithful to his call of ministry, his call to serve God as a church leader. I don't know if you have a highlight from the two books. We'll take them in tandem. So...

Shawn (: 25:28

in cor uh... well uh... i mean i for me is help all it's clear that women need to be quiet

Oh man, that's a whole can of worms, Nathan. I'm saying it very tongue in cheek. They're, listen, these are things that come up in our reading that require some wrestling. And someone who's more of a literalist would say, well, Paul said it. I believe that settles it. And of course, that's true in many ways. But I think as we alluded to with the question about women wearing head coverings, there might be some more

Nathan (: 25:45

It is a can of worms, yes.

Shawn (: 26:13

ancient study that is required before we just, you know, we talked about this when it comes to the Old Testament as well, the Hebrew scripture, like, you just, just because there's a command, it doesn't mean that it's applicable to all times and all places to all people. But again, that's a huge topic. So I'm saying it tongue in cheek, but I think it does get at an important issue when it comes to how we relate to scripture. And we don't probably have time to really do a huge long exposition on that. But I'm just

Nathan (: 26:14

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Shawn (: 26:43

kind of throwing it out there to kind of poke the bear.

Nathan (: 26:46

And maybe a season, a future season of the podcast could be devoted to kind of these big questions of revelation and inspiration. There's other big questions that could be helpful to think about in episodes rather than the format of that we're following now. That's kind of window through which to see and think about the text. So good. I appreciate that.

Shawn (: 26:50

Mmm.

Mmm...

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, good.

Nathan (: 27:15

encouragement in 2nd Timothy for him to be faithful in the proclamation of the teachings of scripture.

Shawn (: 27:22

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 27:25

Titus.

Shawn (: 27:27

Titus, yeah, small book.

Nathan (: 27:28

is a short book, yes, and another exhortation to a church leader to be faithful, and this book also includes the encouragement to teach sound doctrine.

Shawn (: 27:46

Hmm. That's a whole other topic itself as well. What does that even mean?

Nathan (: 27:52

It is, yes, yes. Well sound simply means, you know, just recognizing some, your question's bigger than this, but if sound doctrine doesn't sort of come off clear, well thought out, carefully articulated doctrine that's solidly grounded in the teachings of scripture. And again, that's a

Shawn (: 28:16

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 28:21

So that's another time and another place, most likely. But again, similar to Timothy, Paul is urging these leaders to be faithful to communicate truth, that the truth that has been given to them through scripture. And you mentioned Paul defending his ministry. Paul was called as the story recounts an act, and he lived with this great conviction.

Shawn (: 28:26

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 28:51

of mission, gospel mission, as well as this great conviction that there is truth and there are lies. And he was determined that he would tell the truth of the Jesus story, the salvation story, and his defense of his ministry, his challenge to these young leaders was in line with this conviction that he had an important work to do and nothing should be allowed.

to keep him or other leaders from doing this critical work.

Shawn (: 29:27

I love it.

Nathan (: 29:28

So Hebrews, the largest, I did, thank you, Sean. I'm doing lots of skipping today. Philemon, thank you, yes.

Shawn (: 29:30

Well, you skipped Philemon. Oh, I know, just one second, because Philemon was, I believe, a time bomb. I'll just put it that way. It addresses very practical ways that, you know, slave master relationship. And although Paul doesn't maybe go quite as far as many of us would have liked him to have gone.

Nathan (: 29:42

Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Shawn (: 29:58

and do this big exposition on the evils of slavery, he nevertheless puts, I think, some latent ideas that would develop to help tear down that type of dynamic. Anyway, go ahead, Hebrews.

Nathan (: 30:16

No, that's good. Philemon definitely illustrates Paul sees the world through a different lens than the ancient world in which he lived, a lens defined by the equality that's brought in by the gospel.

Shawn (: 30:27

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm, beautiful, beautiful.

Nathan (: 30:34

Yeah, so Hebrews, we won't get into the authorship of this book because that is, it's another one that's not stated in the book and it is contested in theological circles.

Shawn (: 30:40

Maybe. Ha ha ha. Contested.

Mm.

Nathan (: 30:46

What would you call the central theme of Hebrews?

Shawn (: 30:49

I think Hebrews is just trying to establish, probably for a Jewish audience, the ways in which Jesus legitimately fulfills the kind of Hebrew sanctuary, high priestly ministry. Jesus' ministry does not contradict but fulfills the reality of that ministry. He's the high priest. He's our great high priest.

Nathan (: 31:13

Hmm.

Shawn (: 31:19

He is doing this work of the sanctuary, you know, temple in the Hebrew Bible pointed to. So yeah, I think that's kind of what he's riffing on. Of course, it begins by pointing to the divinity of Jesus. And yet it also points to how there might be some questions about his status in relation to, you know, other created.

beings, angels, etc. So yeah, there's so much, of course, there's so much packed into this. And did I say that Paul wrote it? I made it sound like maybe I said that. But anyway, I don't know who wrote it. But it's basically justification for Jesus being seen as the new priest, as the new temple, as all that.

Nathan (: 32:12

Hmm.

So one of the reasons historically this book may have been written, and this was mentioned by an author I read some time back, Jerusalem and the temple were going to be destroyed, or had been destroyed depending on the timing of the book, by the Romans. And so part of the argument here was essentially anchoring the faith.

Shawn (: 32:34

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 32:43

among believers really transferring it in a sense and anchoring it solidly in Jesus so that as the earthly temple and their cultural identity was kind of pulverized by the Romans, that their faith need not be unsettled because Jesus is the next step.

and the ultimate realization of the entire Hebrew theological story.

Shawn (: 33:17

That's great. I think that's great.

Nathan (: 33:21

Chapter two, by the way, two, three, and four are pretty powerful, especially two and four, in talking about Jesus and his humanity, his ministry as high priest. The New Covenant is referred to twice, quoting from Jeremiah. If that language isn't language that you're familiar with, you will find it mentioned in the book as you read through it. So James.

Shawn (: 33:28

Hmm.

Nathan (: 33:50

We're winding up toward Revelation and we have a short amount of time. James, two Peters, three Johns and a Jude before we get to Revelation. James, what's the big theme for you from James?

Shawn (: 34:04

Well, James is definitely a practical book. He's talking about, listen, we got faith, but is your faith accompanied by good works? And you can't have one without the other. So again, many have seen James's odds with Paul and his emphasis on faith, but James is just complimenting Paul. Even Paul says in places that we're justified by works, which is a whole other discussion. But anyway.

Nathan (: 34:06

Mmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Shawn (: 34:33

James is just saying, listen, this face has to have hands, it has to have feet. This is the way it looks in the practical.

Nathan (: 34:41

Yes, and that's not a strange idea in the context of the larger prophetic communication of scripture. Again, going back to the fact that God's goal is people who love like he loves. It's got to be practical. It can't just be in your head that I'm forgiven. It can't just be between me and God that I'm forgiven. That's a profoundly shallow perspective on what it means to be a

Shawn (: 35:11

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 35:12

Two books by Peter, two letters by Peter, and any comments on these, we wanna move quickly through these, but anything you'd highlight.

Shawn (: 35:14

Mm-hmm.

Oh, well, I don't want to shortchange Peter, but no, Peter, I think, talks about, highlights the importance as a high ecclesiology, we'll put it that way, a high view of the church and our role in the world and the reality of suffering and just we're all a royal priesthood. He elevates again. He elevates the significance of our calling as.

Nathan (: 35:36

Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Shawn (: 35:51

followers of Jesus.

Nathan (: 35:53

Yes, and then three epistles from John are following, follow those two from Peter. The first one is the most, is the longest one and has the kind of the big theological themes. The biggest one for me is essentially John's argument, God is love, and that anybody whose life is out of character with that love is a liar. Anybody who says I'm a follower of Jesus.

Shawn (: 36:13

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 36:20

and lives a life out of character with God's radical love is a liar. That for me would be kind of the key takeaway.

Shawn (: 36:25

Thank you.

Absolutely. John, this book, First John, uses the word love more than any other book in the New Testament. So that just tells you right there.

Nathan (: 36:38

Right? Powerful stuff. Jude is a letter that bears similarities, I believe, to 2 Peter. Did I get that right? To 2 Peter, Jude, and 2 Peter. So you'll feel like you're reading kind of a retelling or a rewritten version of 2 Peter as you read through Jude. And then we get to Revelation, Sean.

Shawn (: 36:43

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Here we are, Nathan.

Nathan (: 37:04

with minutes on the podcast. How much time do we have for John? Because I know your schedule's tight at the moment.

Shawn (: 37:08

I'm sorry for everyone. Yeah, I'm sorry. We've run out of time. There's no time for revelation. Man, if we were, well, I don't want to go down too far this road, but some of us would spend the whole time talking about revelation and I think it's an important book. I admittedly

Nathan (: 37:13

Hahaha!

Right, right.

Shawn (: 37:36

I'm still trying to figure Revelation out. I mean, not that I figured out any other book, but it's the last, seemingly the last book written in the New Testament and the Bible. And there's been a long history of debate as to how to relate to Revelation. Nevermind the individual parts, but just the collective whole. What is this talking about? Is it talking about John's day? Is it talking about

Nathan (: 37:46

Hmm.

Hmm.

Shawn (: 38:05

the quote unquote last days, is it talking about everything in between? Is it, what is it, what is it doing? And anyway, yeah, you said yes, meaning yes, it talks about all of it, right?

Nathan (: 38:08

Yes!

Yeah, yeah.

working through the Bible in: 2024

Shawn (: 38:31

Very well put.

Nathan (: 38:46

this magnificent temple with a river flowing out of it. And my conclusion listening to those chapters is that part of Ezekiel reflected as we've mentioned before God's dream for his people. Here's what can be. Those chapters in Ezekiel never came to fruition. It's literally a hopeful part of Scripture that is what could have been but never was.

Shawn (: 39:06

Hmm.

Nathan (: 39:12

Revelation picks up on some of that in the last few chapters, specifically chapters 21 and 22, last two chapters where the story comes to an end. And I'm just going to read 21. I saw a new heaven and a new earth. This is the beginning of 21. The first heaven and the first earth had passed away. The sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem.

Shawn (: 39:13

Mm-hmm.

Hmm...

Nathan (: 39:41

coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them and they will be his people. That is the realization of the great redemption project, is God with people living in eternal, sustainable, flourishing.

Shawn (: 39:57

Mmm, beautiful.

Nathan (: 40:10

civilization.

Shawn (: 40:12

Beautiful, beautiful. I feel bad for maybe just adding to what you said because that's a beautiful way to end it. Maybe we'll turn back that. But let me just say this is in my reading of the book of Revelation, these are the few things that I feel fairly confident in, okay, based on the book.

Nathan (: 40:22

No, add, add.

Shawn (: 40:39

seems to make the claim in Revelation 1 19, he says write the things which you have seen and the things which are and the things which will take place after this. So he is talking about past, present, future. I feel pretty confident in that. Number two, throughout the book, however else one wants to interpret it, the book does seem to often end as it goes through these different visions.

Nathan (: 40:46

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Shawn (: 41:08

with the return of Christ. A lot of the chapters will end with that idea. So it does seem to point, at least in John's understanding, to a future reality. So I feel pretty good at that. It's not just speaking about what was going on in John's day. There does seem to be some

Nathan (: 41:13

Hmm.

Right.

Shawn (: 41:37

pointing to a future in the culminating of all things. So I feel pretty confident about that. I feel pretty confident that John evidently is talking about different forces that are warring against each other, cosmically, but also earthly conflict as well, and persecution, and forces that are

Nathan (: 41:52

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Shawn (: 42:07

that are conspiring against those who are trying to be faithful to God's love and his way of living. So those are themes that I see pretty clearly in the book. Beyond that...

Nathan (: 42:09

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shawn (: 42:23

Lately I've been feeling like, this may sound heretical, Nathan, but I feel like the way I want to relate to Revelation is the way that I do when I read the Chronicles of Narnia.

Nathan (: 42:36

Hmm.

Shawn (: 42:38

meaning there's a lot of stuff that might be window dressing, and there's just a few theological points, whereas I've been trained to like find some apocalyptic significance in every little detail and every little word. I think it's less like that and more like a big, a big kind of allegory for

Nathan (: 42:43

Hmm.

Hmm.

Shawn (: 43:07

for bigger ideas like the Chronicles of Narnia. I used to get really frustrated when I was first reading the Chronicles of Narnia where I think, man, every little thing has to have some meaning and significance. It's like, no, there's big themes that it's trying to point at. So, I don't know, again, that might sound heretical, but that's where I am.

Nathan (: 43:20

Hmm

So that's another conversation we'll have to have. And I would say the...

Shawn (: 43:25

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Nathan (: 43:32

One of the things that's very clear without sort of getting into the small details is that there is a struggle on earth and in the supernatural realm between good and evil that comes into sharp focus in chapter 12, the sort of the center of the book. There is counsel to churches in the first part of the book. And then there's kind of this feeling of shifting.

Shawn (: 43:41

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (: 44:00

to what we might call apocalyptic or end times or wrap up of history type ideas near toward the end, the second half of the book. So those are some of the big pieces. And then for me again, what I read sort of in the introductory comments on this book is the great, the final objective is what we talked about it thematically in a sense in Paul's writings and

Shawn (: 44:18

Yeah.

Nathan (: 44:29

throughout scripture, people living in sustainable civilization with God. And I would add in the Christian world, we often think of heaven. The big goal is heaven. I want to go to heaven. I want to heaven, heaven. The truth is the story doesn't end with heaven. It ends with earth. There is heaven there. We see it in John, all part of this week's reading. Jesus says, I'm going to go make a mansion for you. I'll come get you. So there is kind of this exit.

Shawn (: 44:46

Mmm, beautiful.

Nathan (: 44:58

vacation, whatever, in heaven, but ultimately the goal of the entire story is the resettling of planet earth with people who can live in a sustainable society defined by love for eternity future.

Shawn (: 45:16

Mmm, beautiful. I love it. Beautiful, beautiful.

Nathan (: 45:21

So we got to wrap it up, Sean. Thank you so much for being in this season with me, this journey with me. I don't know if you have any thoughts that you would want to just throw out from your experience before we call it a season.

Shawn (: 45:23

Mmm.

Oh man, it's been a marathon. It's been a marathon, both the reading and the interacting about the reading, but it's been awesome. And I've loved just expounding upon the beautiful theme. And I think what you just said there at the end, Nathan, it made my heart rejoice. Just this picture that God is trying to paint for us as we humbly yet with confidence.

Nathan (: 45:53

Hmm.

Shawn (: 46:03

you know, march towards that great goal of life together on earth, living out God's love. I mean, that is such a beautiful picture. I want it. I want it so much.

Nathan (: 46:09

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

That's it. And with that, we'll wrap up this season, this second season of the 13-week Bible. And may it inspire you to trust the radical love of God. May it inspire you to spend time in the story of God found in Scripture and experience that story in your personal life and in relationship with others.

Until next time, keep leaning into the wonder of God's love.

Transcribed by Riverside.fm