Ecclesiastes—Jeremiah 10 with Shawn & Nathan
In this episode of the 13 Week Bible, Shawn and Nathan preview the Scripture for week 8: that's the entire books of Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, and on through Jeremiah 10. We not only hope you'll enjoy their fun and informative dialogue as they continue their journey through the Bible in just 13 weeks but will be inspired to read or listen through the Bible yourself.
For more inspiration, visit Loveshaped.life.
Transcript
Hey, it's Nathan and Sean again. We want to welcome you back to the 13 week Bible season two. Today we're in episode nine ahead of week eight's reading as we continue this expansive journey through the Bible in 13 short weeks. We're both thoroughly enjoying our read and hope you're finding it helpful too. Today we're previewing Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, and the first 10 chapters of Jeremiah.
if you've peeked ahead, you'll know that we'll be spending a whole five days in Isaiah alone. It's also worth noting that we're rushing down the other side of our journey ever closer to its conclusion than its beginning. Sean, it is good to have you on. How are you?
Shawn (:I'm well, how about yourself?
Nathan (:Yeah, good. The sun is shining today. It is as we're recording this podcast. It is a crisp day just before the beginning of December. So hopefully by the time this podcast drops, it will be the other side of at least the major part of winter. So Well, I guess it'll drop. Let's see if dropping all through January.
Shawn (:Hmm.
Yeah.
Nathan (:It'll be dropping sometime in February. So I suppose this is going to hit in the throes of winter, but spring will be not too far ahead when you're listening. So we're hoping that February is treating you well.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nathan (:Today we're looking at, continuing our journey looking again at Ecclesiastes is where we start. Last week we worked through Psalms, the rest of Psalms and through Proverbs. Again, two of our favorite books, which is true many times when we talk about scripture, we have many favorite books at different times in different places. We begin with another of Solomon's books.
This one, Ecclesiastes, rather melancholy reflection by the wise king Solomon on the meaning of life. Then Song of Solomon depicting a rather juicy romance between Solomon and a beautiful Shulamite woman, probably the most graphic romantic language in the entire collection of biblical text. And then we have a rapid shift from
this time in Solomon where he is king during the United Kingdom, we might call it, when Israel was one kingdom. And the next two books in this week's read, Isaiah and Jeremiah, are at a very different time in history. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah come into ministry after the kingdom has been divided for a long time. Unfortunately, neither the wisdom of the early prophets nor the wisdom of
Proverbs or Ecclesiastes had been heeded. And so that leaves the people a very desperate situation. Isaiah is online beginning with Isaiah in Judah, Jeroboam the second of Israel. So Isaiah begins his prophetic ministry before the fall of the Northern Kingdom, referred to as Israel or Ephraim.
in this read, though his ministry appears to unfold exclusively in the kingdom of Judah, his ministry does extend into the reign of Manasseh, probably just the early days of Manasseh's reign and includes the reigns of both Ahaz and Hezekiah. If you want to do a history recap, you can run back to 2 Chronicles 26, somewhere in early 2 Chronicles, and then
to early 2 Chronicles 33. That would be the historical timeline in which Isaiah ministers. And then we're just getting into Jeremiah. Jeremiah, interestingly, has longer chapters than Isaiah for the most part. We're going to be through Jeremiah 10. Couple of passages there, and then Sean, I'm gonna pull you back into the discussion. So Jeremiah begins with these words.
the words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin. The word of the Lord came to him in the 13th year of the reign of Josiah, son of Ammon, king of Judah, and through the reign of Jehoiakim, son of Josiah, king of Judah, down to the fifth month of the 11th year of Zedekiah, son of Josiah, king of Judah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile. Jeremiah's ministry extends from...
the reign of Josiah through the downfall of the nation of the northern kingdom. No, I'm sorry. The nation of Judah. The northern kingdom has already fallen by the time Jeremiah comes on the scene. There are references to the northern kingdom in Jeremiah, but those are past tense references and it is the kingdom of Judah that is facing its end. A couple more lines from second from scripture before we
get into the discussion. 2 Chronicles 34 makes this observation. Josiah was eight years old when he became king. Then he reigned in Jerusalem 31 years. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and followed the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David. In his 12th year, the year before Jeremiah's ministry officially begins,
In his 12th year, he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem of high places, astral poles and idols. So interesting to notice that's the beginning time frame of the prophetic ministry of Jeremiah. And then one last note, Jeremiah, St. Chronicles 35, Jeremiah composed laments for Josiah. And to this day, all the male and female singers commemorate Josiah in the laments.
These became a tradition in Israel and are written in the laments. The reason, by the way, is because Josiah is one of the most faithful kings, which is helpful to keep in mind. In spite of Josiah's deep devotion, the people are astonishingly wicked and never recover from the reign of, I believe it's Josiah's grandfather, Manasseh. And so some
some really sad history. Let's open the book by jumping back or this week's discussion. I should say by jumping back to Ecclesiastes. Sean, that was a long introduction. Let's talk.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm. It was a long introduction. Oh, it was good. It was a good introduction because I read these books, like, a few weeks, maybe a few months back, because I'm a little ahead of where we're recording. So it was a good refresher for me, for sure. Thank you, Nathan, for that.
Nathan (:Hahaha
Yeah, no worries. Some good, good stuff coming in. So we're in Ecclesiastes. What how would you recap Ecclesiastes in like a sentence or two? Then we can talk in more detail. But I'm just curious what your first takeaway is.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Well, yeah, well, I could say much like I said about proverbs is that I didn't used to really like Ecclesiastes, but I'm also, you know, I'm also a person who has tendencies to melancholy as well. So I appreciate, I've come to a lot greater appreciation of Ecclesiastes, which, yeah, has these little pithy expressions that almost come from a cynical perspective. You know, this
Nathan (:Hahaha.
Hmm.
Shawn (:Solomon who's gone through his life of searching, I guess you could maybe say it, where he is trying to find the meaning of life, trying to ascertain what brings fulfillment and purpose. He basically is like, I've tried it all and I didn't find much to satisfy me. Everything's vanity, vanity. That's probably the most famous expression. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Thanks for watching!
Yeah.
Shawn (:He also talks about how there's nothing new under the sun, that he's seen it all, he's been through it all, there's nothing that would surprise him. Ecclesiastes is sort of a commentary on the fleeting and transient nature of life, how there's nothing but the eternal. There's in Ecclesiastes 3, and again we'll get into the specifics I know.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm
Shawn (:Basically, there's this expression where he says that God has placed eternity in our heart. This idea that nothing in this world can fully, to kind of go back to something C.S. Lewis said, nothing in this world can truly satisfy it. It must mean we were created for another world. That's kind of the Ecclesiastes' message from what I glean.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm
That's good. At the same time, I texted you that I'm not sure what Solomon thinks about the future, because he's very Solomon is very like his conclusion. The end of the book, you know, except just kind of not thinking about the last lines of the book. Before that, his conclusion is basically live life now just live it to the fullest. God's created you for this moment created you to
Shawn (:Yeah.
Hahaha
Mm-hmm.
Thanks for watching!
Nathan (:to enjoy this moment, he's given you things to do, and the most meaningful thing to do in life is to be fully engaged in living life today. So it's, yeah, so I'm not sure what his theology or philosophy of the after death or of what happens after the human story ends. So.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I hate you.
I agree with you 100%. I would not want to place much confidence in my theological conclusions through a reading of Ecclesiastes. If you're trying to build a theology based on Ecclesiastes, then maybe there's others who've done it, and they, no doubt there's people who are much more well-versed in this book, but I think it's a very foolish endeavor to try to.
builds much of a theology on Ecclesiastes because it's poetry, it's wisdom literature, but at the same time, you can't put your feet too firmly on solid ground because you're like, okay, is Solomon describing a positive outlook here? In other words, is he really describing what he thinks or is he setting up straw men that he's going to tear down?
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm.
Shawn (:Does he really mean what he says? You know, and kind of what you alluded to is ironic because within our faith community, probably our views of the afterlife are like, Ecclesiastes is the launching point, is like the, like, is the proof text par excellence of what happens after you die. And I'm just like, ah, I don't know if this is a great book.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:to kind of start our discussion or even especially end our discussion. Yeah, maybe it can be a part of the conversation, but I would not want to be overly confident that I can prove a theology of death based on Ecclesiastes.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm. So one of the things we talk a lot and one of the points of this podcast is to talk about how to treat scripture. And I think your observation is really important. I was reminded the other day somewhere. I can't attribute it because I don't know who said it in the most recent iteration I saw. But scripture is not a theological textbook.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:Scripture is a story. Probably one of my friends at Arise or Lightbearers is the one, Great Ministries, by the way. Actually, they're one and the same, I guess, at this point. But anyway, the idea that the books of the Bible do have, each writer has a purpose, and being careful as we read the book to keep in mind the author's purpose, there may be some tangential conclusions we can draw from
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:things an author says. You know, if you're reading a biography of somebody, you can sort of pick up pieces that the author wasn't meaning to really focus the book on, but you kind of get these side insights. And then, but then there's the main point of the book. So it's the side insights we have to be kind of careful about because if that's not the author's point.
We've got to be aware that maybe our assumptions about what the author might believe or might be thinking about a side topic are partial. And so I think that's sort of where you're going, Sean, is that like the afterlife statements in Ecclesiastes, his point is not a conversation about the afterlife, but a conversation about living well now because it's the living who are fully engaged in life, not the dead.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:and he's in a culture where there was a high emphasis on like the afterlife and um I don't know the Egyptian timeline but at some point the Egyptians were burying um whole servant suites of servants and officers with the pharaohs because of the idea that the pharaoh and his attendants would actually live on in the afterlife. Solomon's like hey
When we die, we just go to zero. There's no conscious engagement in life in this world now. So don't be obsessed with the future, live in the present. So I find Solomon's book actually, Ecclesiastes, a fantastic read for, especially a pushback against materialism. He does a lot to say, hey, what are you accumulating all that stuff for? You're gonna die and have no use for it. Somebody is like.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:The king gets all this power and this wealth and then his foolish son comes along and wastes it. What was the point of that whole life spent in accumulation when there's no enjoyment of that accumulation? I think that's a great, just a great recalibration for us in the West to place so much emphasis on nice houses and nice stuff.
Shawn (:Good night.
Nathan (:All of us need to say, wait a minute, what in the world am I doing with my time? And that's Ecclesiastes. That's the big question of Ecclesiastes.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
I think ironically, I think the same point is made by Jesus coming later playing off questions of death, but he has a different take on the afterlife when it comes to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. If we were to take Ecclesiastes and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as
Nathan (:Go for it.
Hmm.
Shawn (:as explicit systematic explanations of what happens after you die, they would be polar opposites because Ecclesiastes says the dead know nothing, Jesus comes along and says, hey, there's a rich man who died and he was in the bosom of Abraham and all this stuff. But that's not the point of Ecclesiastes, that's not the point of Jesus' parable. The point is, as you said, what are you doing in this life? Right?
Nathan (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Shawn (:you know, the rich man had squandered his wealth on himself instead of helping other people where, you know, again, Solomon is trying to tell us to make the most of this life and to, you know, even, you know, this is where we get the expression, you know, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, right? It's like, okay, we tend to think of that as a wrong way of thinking, but Solomon kind of is like...
Nathan (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Shawn (:You know, make the most of it. You know, make the best of your life now.
Nathan (:Right, right. That said, he did say that basically wise people prefer funerals to parties because funerals have a way of refocusing, keeping us grounded that parties can kind of leave us sort of forgetting about life and being careless. He's like, actually it's the funeral that helps you kind of stay focused on what matters in life.
Shawn (:Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:So I have a question for you. What, how would you define meaning? As you see Solomon kind of understanding as you think through the book of Ecclesiastes, what do you think Solomon has in mind when he thinks about what is meaningful?
Shawn (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hmm
Well, can I cheat and just kind of point to the last verse of the book? I mean, he says, I think in the last verse of the book or last two verses, let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God and keep his commandments for this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every circuit thing, whether good or evil. I do think you can build a theology out of that, by the way.
Nathan (:That's fine. Cheap.
Hmm.
Mm.
Yes.
Shawn (:There's going to be an inspection of your work, and God's going to even bring the secret things into judgment. So this is not to promote a fear-based or shame-based religious approach, but just to point out the reality that, yes, we should make the most of this life, but it does have eternal, an eternal context that our work, our work, our efforts, our lives will have eternal.
Nathan (:Yep.
Hmm
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:effect. And so meaning, meaning I think comes via our, the degree to which we align with God's eternal purposes, God's eternal rhythms and life, you know, law, if you will, like, you know, he says, keep his commandments, this is man's all. So, so the degree to which we align ourselves with.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:the design of God's moral universe, I think, is the degree to which we can experience meaning in this life.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
I think that's a great observation and it's in line with what we've seen that scripture is very focused on
Yeah, and I would say concretely focused on how we live, like our moral interactions with fellow human beings. That's like a very, it's a central piece to the human story is concretely, not philosophical, we believe, not theological, we believe, even though those things have an impact, but concretely, how am I interacting with and responding to my fellow human beings?
and how am I concretely interacting, responding to God. So we gotta move on, but before we move out of Ecclesiastes, I wanted to just mention one of my favorite passages is in seven, and Solomon says, "'Do not be over righteous, neither be over wise. "'Why destroy yourself?'
Shawn (:Absolutely. Good.
Mm.
Nathan (:Do not be over wicked and do not be a fool. Why die before your time? I just think it's a fascinating where Solomon specifically calls out extremes. He's not advocating for actual immorality, but he is saying, listen, don't be so consumed in, in being super wise, super righteous that you're impractical, sort of the saying is.
Shawn (:Mm. Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Nathan (:to heavenly minded. This is the kind of the extreme head in the clouds thing. And someone saying, listen, don't get carried away on one side and don't throw your life away in evil either. And so his conclusion is, do not, let's see, it is good to grasp the one that's doing good and not let go of the other.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes. That's the bottom line is this call to not be extreme. And I just love that those words from Ecclesiastes. So Song of Solomon, I have no notes for Song of Solomon. It is a steamy book.
Shawn (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Very good.
Well, you are in luck because you're a luck because at one point I was intending to study the Song of Solomon for potentially a PhD in Old Testament studies. So I know everything about the Song of Solomon. No, I'm just kidding. It's been a while. I don't know much. I'm just being a I was going to study it though for pH my PhD work.
Nathan (:Alright. Good, good. Let's hear it. Let's hear it.
Okay.
Shawn (:No, it's an amazing book that of course doesn't talk about God anywhere. There is one occasion where it kind of uses the Hebrew word Yah, shortened for Yahweh, which makes, you know, has some allusion to God, but it's basically, to put it in these terms, it's a secular romance poem, really.
Nathan (:All right.
Shawn (:That's what it is to a large extent, which has caused people to scratch their head throughout ever since it was read. One Hebrew Jewish rabbi, however, described Song of Solomon as the holy of holies when it comes to the Hebrew Bible. Like it's the throne room of God, so to speak. And so many people have interpreted it differently throughout the Middle Ages.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm
Shawn (:throughout church history, they want to overly allegorize it and just, you know, remove any sensual, sexual connotation, be like, oh, this is just describing the relationship between God and his people. Of course, I think many of us think maybe it kind of can have a literal meaning as well as a typological, like it's both, like it's extolling the virtues of beautiful, innocent love.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:But that being said, there's complicating interpretive problems. You know, you said this is a story between Solomon and the Shulamite. You know, many think that it's, many scholars think it's not even talking about Solomon. Many say it's not written by Solomon, you know, etc., etc. We won't go into all those details, but at the very least, I would say it does, it does, it does legitimize, I believe, the...
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:beauty of sexuality for its own sake. It doesn't have to have some deeper theological connection like many of the, again, the theologians in the Middle Ages believed like, oh my goodness, we have to sanctify it by saying it, it's pointing to God. Romance, sex, you know, these things are legitimate in their own right. And it's just, I think, praising the virtues of beautiful...
Nathan (:Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:relationship between men and women.
Nathan (:That's good. And that's where we'll leave Song of Solomon.
Shawn (:I will say that when I was an undergrad at Andrews University, my undergrad teacher in Old Testament, he with no hint of irony said that you are not allowed to read the Song of Solomon unless you are married. And of course, that encouraged me to run home to my dorm as quickly as I could to read it. So he, I don't know if he was using reverse psychology to get
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:get you to read it, but yeah, there have been restrictions on the Song of Solomon in various religious communities because of the graphic nature of it.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Yes, yeah, quite a book. And I would agree that there, I think it is within the, within wise treatment of scripture to assume some allegorical application of the text. I think that's a fair use of the text. I'm not persuaded that that's necessarily the point. So I think that's sort of up for grabs, but
Shawn (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm, yeah. But what's interesting, and maybe the reader can just have their eye out for this, but one interesting angle from which to come at the Song of Solomon is that there is a lot of terminology that seems to be taken from the sanctuary. And so it is almost to some degree, on some level, it is maybe pointing, you know, again,
Nathan (:Hmm
Shawn (:talked about it's the holy of holies. There is maybe some typological connection there between the sanctuary, the temple, and this idea of love. So just keep your eye out for that.
Nathan (:Yes, so sounds like I need to be watching for that more next time I go through the book. So we are in Isaiah now, a big book, 66 chapters, and you'll read the whole book again. It'll take about five of this week's reading days just for Isaiah. And, wow, what are your first thoughts on Isaiah?
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Well, many people have noted that Isaiah is like the fifth gospel almost, like it's the Old Testament gospel book. And I think that's certainly one reading of it that, you know, obviously a lot of messianic prophecies come from the book of Isaiah, especially, you know, the latter part of it, but even the earlier parts of it as well.
Nathan (:Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:And, you know, many people have kind of made divisions between different sections of Isaiah. Certainly, the first half spends a lot of time critiquing Judah and its sin and unrighteousness. And then, you know, there are other parts where it's critiquing other nations. And then, you know, beginning mostly in chapter 40, it definitely points now to the Messiah and his work of.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:of salvation and deliverance. And so those are maybe some of the broad, you know, bird's eye view look at the book.
Nathan (:Yep. And I think we'll focus our discussion probably leaning towards, at least my heart wants to lean towards Isaiah 40 and on. I do want to just note from this one line, Isaiah, first chapter, your hands are full of blood. Just that, that God has again, this very practical concern. It's
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Nathan (:It's not high in the sky, it's very practical. You are behaving horribly toward the people around you. And the blood was both just cruelty, but also included the offering of children in sacrificial rituals. So.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
And exploiting the poor and not caring for the widowed and orphans. And yeah, you know, God says, your worship is meaningless to me. I can't even hear your prayers because you are holding up your hands to pray to me. But as you said, Nathan, they're full of blood. And so it's like the ultimate religious hypocrisy. And God.
Nathan (:Right, exactly. Yep.
Yes.
Shawn (:quite frankly, has no interest in our worship if it is not expressed through works of justice and righteousness and care for the less fortunate.
Nathan (:Yes.
Exactly. And again, that's where it comes down to the idea that this is not that scripture is not consumed with the abstract processing of theological philosophical ideas, but is centered around the very practical reality of how do we treat the people around us? And so just a couple notes on that, as you mentioned, this is
24 the earth is defiled by its people They have disobeyed the laws violated the statutes broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth Its people must bear their guilt Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up and very few are left So this is a conversation we've had before about the idea of god of Sort of is god imposing consequences for evil?
or are human beings reaping the consequences of their actions? And I think this Isaiah 24 passage really points toward God stepping out of the picture and saying, okay, you have loaded the train. Now I'm going to stop holding it back. And the actions you've done, you're going to have the opportunity now of experiencing the weight, at least the partial weight of those actions.
crashing down on you.
Shawn (:Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a fantastic point, Nathan. You know, of course, you know, not to get too far off field here, but just from a theological perspective, I think there's a sense in which it's a both and. You know, God's justice is God's protection as well.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Yep, yep, yep.
Shawn (:But yeah, I think it's a fantastic point. It's not an arbitrary imposed justice, right? Either way, it's like, it's not God just making up the rules as he goes. Yeah, there's a implicit and sometimes explicit denigration of life when we act outside of God's design for the universe.
Nathan (:Yes.
Right.
Right.
Hmm.
Yep.
Shawn (:And so God has a vested interest in making sure that he honors and preserves life, and that's where his justice comes in.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Yep. And, and yeah, it's a great point that both are present. Um, one God's action, especially to sort of, to preserve human beings from ultimate consequences, ultimate impact before they've had a time to learn and grow and, and think through their actions. And so there's a preservative impact as well in God's.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm. Yeah, and even, you know, not to get ahead of ourselves, but even the great, greatest messianic prophecy, Isaiah 53, you know, there, you know, one of the passages I just can't get around is that it pleased the Lord to bruise him, like, you know, that's an externally imposed action, it seems, and, you know, how do we, but anyway, we can get into that a little later, but...
Nathan (:in God's work, yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, so we're heading that direction. I do want to point out a little late, but just observe that both Isaiah and Jeremiah have very distinct calls to prophetic ministry. Isaiah's call is in chapter six, Jeremiah's call is in the first chapter, but both of them have rather dramatic calls, very specific calls to their what, as far as we can tell, is for both of them a lifelong vocation.
Shawn (:Hmm.
Nathan (:as a lifelong primary vocation as a prophetic voice.
Shawn (:Yeah, absolutely. And I, yeah, well, maybe I'm resisting making a point here about, you know, the famous Jeremiah passage of, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. We probably should just let that passage sit without trying to make political.
Nathan (:Well, we can maybe touch on that in Jeremiah.
Shawn (:statements, but we'll get there.
Nathan (:So Isaiah 14, a great passage to slow down for. In that passage, kind of the veil is pulled back from the human story and we see the demonic, specifically Satan, kind of see a glimpse of his work and his origins. So that's a super insightful chapter, not one we can process more here, but one that's worth.
thinking about and observing some helpful things about the human story and the way life is here on earth, that chapter helps to explain pieces of that.
Shawn (:Mm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
Nathan (:So, I mean, let's go to 40. I think 40 is, I think we're ready to go to 40. I guess before that, there's this line, one sentence, chapter 32, the fruit of that, excuse me, the fruit of that righteousness will be peace. Its effect will be quietness and confidence forever. For me, it just contrasts between.
Shawn (:Hehehehe
Mmm.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Nathan (:the instability, the non-sustainability of evil, and the sustainable reality that is the result of righteousness.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great point.
Nathan (:So then before we get to 40, there are some specific chapters related to Hezekiah and his struggle with Sennacherib. And then we get into Isaiah 40. And I'm going to, Sean, I'm going to give you the first chance to take a crack at Isaiah 40 and on. But I'm curious.
Shawn (:Oh man, wow, what a privilege, Nathan. Well, I mean, there's so much. Isaiah 40 through 66, I mean, in some ways, I know this is an overstatement, but it feels like if that's all you had, and you didn't have anything else from the Bible, I feel like you would have enough.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:to help you understand what God is trying to do in this world, in the universe with his people. Now you certainly get the gospel all throughout these passages. And you basically have, you know, an implicit and often explicit explanation about the human condition, you know, where we are in our iniquity.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm.
Shawn (:And yet, even right from the beginning of Isaiah 40, it talks about how Israel's iniquity was pardoned. And so we see the gospel right there from the get-go. But then we have the ongoing explanation about this Messiah that is coming. And there's been debate,
Nathan (:Hmm
Shawn (:would interpret, you know, certainly a lot of our Jewish brothers and sisters have interpreted the Messiah not to be the singular individual, but to be really talking about Israel as a whole. And it does, like some chapters go back and forth, you're like, okay, is Isaiah talking about Israel here, or is he talking about the singular Messiah figure? And you're not quite sure. And that's probably because it's
Nathan (:Mmm.
Shawn (:purposely ambiguous because the Messiah, you know, all of God's people are summed up in the Messiah. Like what is true of Messiah, and when we say the term Messiah, of course, we need to explain for those who may not know, because the term is not directly used in the passage, but Messiah is the anointed one, the chosen one. So yeah, what is true of the Messiah is true of the
Nathan (:Hmm
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:God's people. So when Messiah comes and gives of himself, he is acting as Israel when he does that. And so that's one important part of it. And of course, again, Isaiah 53, the beautiful exposition on the sacrifice, the death of the Messiah, not only on behalf of, but as Israel. And then, you know, I think kind of from
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:from there and I'm sure you will want to spend a little time on this Isaiah 58, Nathan, if I know anything about you. But that latter part of this section kind of focuses on the reality of what God's Messiah people look like in their living, you know, and the promise of these Messiah people living out there.
Nathan (:Yes.
Hmm.
Shawn (:the reality of God's love, sacrificial love, draws people to them, and then it pushes them out into the world to address the real needs that the world has. So again, I don't wanna steal your thunder on that part, but that's what I see as this beautiful, the Gentiles will come, they'll see the light, and they will be drawn to it. And...
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
No, it's good.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:You know, and as you live lives of true devotion and fasting, you will be, you know, liberating people from their bonds of oppression and so forth. So anyway, that's what I see.
Nathan (:Yep. That's good. That's good. So I'm going to go all the way back to Chapter 40. Chapter 40 for me is a fascinating chapter. You'll read several times Isaiah, God really trying to differentiate himself between the idols of the nations. And, and
reinforced that he's the living God, there is literally, literally no one like God. It doesn't matter what you say about these foreign gods of whatever nation you would go to, there's literally no competition in the God space. That competition is only in our heads. Right. And that was actually for me, that was an idea. It felt like something of a new level of insight there. Just just kind of.
Shawn (:Ready?
Nathan (:um seeing kind of a refresh angle this idea that you know on the human level we do kind of see competition in air quotes um that there are these alternatives but the truth is there is only one living god there's only one creator there's only one being who knows the future before it happens there is zero competition and i think that
Shawn (:Mm.
Nathan (:It's helpful to keep in mind as we look at the story of scripture that God is not God is not in a pantheon. One God pushing back against the other. He's it. And the messes on Earth, there is a rebel angel, but he's also created being more powerful, the demonic forces more powerful than us, but not on a God level. They're they're much there. They are.
almost indistinguishable from us if we're taking God in the picture, if we're comparing us and God. Angels are probably virtually indistinguishable from us as far as distance, in capacity, and being, etc. Right, so that's just something, just a really important piece to keep
Shawn (:In comparison to God.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:in mind again that there is there is only one God. He's trying to cut through the noise.
Shawn (:Well, that, you know, a couple things there, I mean, that, of course, lines up with everything we've been reading throughout the Hebrew scriptures where, you know, God is trying constantly to establish his singular supremacy. And that's why he's, you know, when children of Israel go into the land of Canaan, the
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm
Shawn (:like just tear down the altars, do that all, you know, because he's trying to establish his singular supremacy. And again, as we've talked about before, he's not doing that because he has an ego. He's not doing it because he's insecure. He is doing that for their own good, for our own good, because we see throughout the Hebrew
Nathan (:Right, right.
Shawn (:utterly dire consequences of not recognizing the reality of God's singular supremacy. So that's one thing I think we can see. I think also it sets us up for the astounding nature of what we call, and you and I are coming into the season as we're recording this, into the incarnation, that there is a singular God.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes, yes.
Shawn (:and we skipped over it but prior to it's where we get that amazing idea that God with us, Emmanuel, this comes in the first half of the book, that there will be the virgin shall conceive and bring forth the Son and his name shall be Emmanuel, God with us, like the idea that God is unequaled and yet God willingly chose to come and be born of us.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:sinful woman is just, you know, we can't appreciate the full extent of God's humanity unless we first understand the amazing, astounding nature of his utter incomparability. So that's an amazing distinction there.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, and my mind was going not to the incarnation, but just to this idea that this divine being, which we understand from different parts of scripture, is three beings who are one in much of what is a mystery to us.
power, the foreknowledge, the creative capacity. And yet the fact that this being is still in conversation with still patiently working with human beings who are stupid. In fact, Isaiah 48, I think, calls them stupid. Like, how can you how can you cut a tree down, make your breakfast with it, make your shovel with it, make your house with it?
Shawn (:Mmm.
Yeah.
Nathan (:and then make part of it a God that you think is somehow supernaturally intervening in your life. Who is not thinking here? That's nonsense. That's basically my summary of Isaiah 40. Anyway, we do have to move on, but go for it.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Well, I mean, you look at the first chapter. The ox knows its owner and the donkey its master's crib, but Israel does not know. My people do not consider. They don't like, even dumb animals know what's up and what's down. And like these people, but yet God continues to labor with us in his love. And to the point where he will send, you know, God himself.
Nathan (:Right, yes. Right.
Right. Yep.
Yeah.
Shawn (:will become one of us because that's how committed and covenant he is with us. There's no plan B. There's no plan B with God. We are the plan.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
No plan B, yeah.
Yep. So yeah, 52 through 66, quite a piece of scripture. I what I call some of this and I'd love your feedback is the divine vision. There is we pick up on this idea of the ultimate dream of God for his people to be restored, to live long in the land, to live long lives where a kid a hundred years old is, you know, and I forget the exact language, but
Shawn (:Hmm.
Mmm.
Nathan (:it's language something like that in Isaiah 65 66, where you get this picture of restored planet. We don't, that's not fully developed. Again, it's almost like some of this is an embryonic stages, like you were talking about the Messiah language. There's this vision is beginning to, or I wouldn't say it's just beginning. There's pieces of this previously, but this vision is gaining steam of a planet that is
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:beyond the destructive force of evil of a settled civilized world, that vision culminates in revelation, but there's these pieces of it. So Isaiah 65, 66, fascinating reference to a new earth, reference to inhabiting the land without any threat of marauding, invading armies coming in to steal it.
So just some beautiful stuff to pay attention to as you look again, this vision, Daniel picks it up. Revelation kind of again culminates that. But this vision that evil God's like, we're going to get through this. Messiah is coming. I'm committed to this. Even a reference, I think it's Isaiah 52, 54, one of those two to Noah. 54, Isaiah 54 to Noah and the flood. And God saying, listen, as committed as I was to no more floodwaters.
I'm that committed to seeing this redemptive project fully through.
Shawn (:Beautiful. I love that. I love that. I could riff on that, but I know our time is short. But it's just a beautiful picture. Jeremiah, Nathan, you didn't even get to talk about your favorite chapter. I'm sorry, Isaiah 58. I apologize, Nathan. Just know that, listener, know that Nathan loves Isaiah 58. I do as well.
Nathan (:Yeah, Jeremiah. It is, yeah, Jeremiah.
No, no, it's fine. No, no, it's.
Shawn (:Someone that we both greatly admire who has said that Isaiah 58 is basically the mission statement of God's people at this time in Earth's history. So we'll leave it at that, but it's a beautiful chapter.
Nathan (:Hmm.
And I think so and I would both agree with that statement. It is, yeah, read it through. It's pretty in your face, both anciently and in modern times. Again, right along the lines of the scriptures are not stuck in the clouds. They're very much about God saying human beings were made to love well. And.
Shawn (:We would, yeah.
Mm.
Nathan (:The point of everything I want you to do is to become somebody who loves like I love. And that's kind of the core piece of Isaiah 58. So anyway, you'll have to enjoy it in your reading and maybe there'll be a podcast in the future on Isaiah 58. A friend and I, a couple of friends, I think are going to work on that one. So
Shawn (:Mmm, beautiful.
Beautiful.
Nice, nice.
Nathan (:Yeah, maybe Sean, maybe we'll have Sean back in that mix.
Shawn (:Well, I don't know. I said, you said a friend, and I guess, you know, maybe I'm not one of those. No, I'm, you have more than just me as a friend, Nathan. Wow. No, that's awesome. That's awesome.
Nathan (:I've got several friends. So, so as Jeremiah, we just get into Jeremiah, keeping in mind that Jeremiah and Isaiah are not contemporaries. Isaiah is likely murdered during the early days of Manasseh's reign. And Jeremiah begins his ministry 13 years into the grandson of
Manasseh, who is Josiah, one of, if not my favorite king in the entire list of kings of either the United Kingdom or the divided kingdoms of the people of Israel.
Shawn (:not to like Josiah for many different reasons.
Nathan (:Yep. So that's the starting place of Jeremiah's reign. What's interesting to me is that when you go back to the Chronicles, it recounts Josiah as being an amazing reformer. When you read Jeremiah, it's very clear that what he did was not getting through to the people.
Shawn (:Which just speaks to the long-term destructive nature of bad leadership that even a strong leader can't counteract. When you're too far down the road, it's really hard to... You can make gains, but those gains are nothing in comparison to years and years and years and years of bad leadership.
Nathan (:Yep.
Right.
Mm-hmm. You'll see in... Go ahead.
Shawn (:First, Jeremiah. Go ahead, Nathan. No, no, you go.
Nathan (:I'm just going to say you'll see you'll notice in Jeremiah this reference, which is actually heartbreaking of God. We rep speaking to Israel from the perspective of a wife. I'm sorry, a husband whose wife is unfaithful and talking about Israel. Here's one line. Have you seen what fickle Israel has done like a wife who commits adultery? Israel has worshiped other gods on every hill and under every green tree.
Shawn (:Mm.
mmm awful course jeremiah i was gonna pay is often known as the weeping prophet you know and of course we're going to get into lamentations later as well but you know jeremiah nine one all that my head for water and my eyes a fountain of tears that i might weep day and night plane of the daughter of my people so there's just so much
Nathan (:Hmm
Hmm.
Hmm.
Shawn (:pathos and emotion that is coming out of Jeremiah's pen as he thinks about the reality of God's people. I know it's just, yeah, it's an interesting reflection for our own times and what is it that moves me about the reality of God's people today? You know, we could, again, we could go off on that.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm
Shawn (:Yeah, it's just, there's, you know, this is a bigger question as well, Nathan, but like these were God's chosen people. And, you know, all of this assumes that there is a sense in which God does call specific people and specific groups of people. And that's why it's so upsetting to Jeremiah because these are the chosen people who are not acting according to God's principles of love.
Nathan (:Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Shawn (:But anyway, that's a very interesting conversation in and of itself.
Nathan (:Could be interesting to take another, just another season and just follow that theme of chosen people would be kind of interesting to explore the text. Just looking at that singular theme. You were mentioning, I don't remember exactly what you just said talking about. Was I Jeremiah nine? Refresh my mind on that.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Just about the weeping, the weeping part.
Nathan (:Yes, the weeping. Yes, the weeping part. So in sort of in light of that, here are these words earlier in the book. Oh, Israel, my faithless people come home to me again, for I am merciful. I will not be angry with you forever. So there is the sight of God just with. Call after call after call to his people, come back, don't do that. You're you're being foolish and stupid and
Shawn (:Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Nathan (:And yet this longing of God's heart saying, listen, come back. I'm not going to be angry forever. I really want you back. I want to restore you. I want the best for you. And so you see that coming out, even as. There's strong language of coming destruction of armies coming in and devastating the people and just the unfolding of the. Kind of the evil trajectory that.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:that the people of Israel have taken, it's going to bear fruit. Even in the midst of that, God's saying, listen, come back. I want you back.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
It raises, take it from a little different angle as well. I mean it points to a larger question as well about God's anger because he says I won't be angry with you forever which necessarily means that he is angry on some level and Is that you know, is that appropriate? Is that inappropriate? How do we feel about God's anger? Because that's definitely
Nathan (:Hmm
Hmm.
Shawn (:a common theme throughout. You know, yes, there's mercy, but that is contrasted with a reality of his anger. And, you know, we can develop that theme more in the future, but I would just submit here very quickly that I would be probably very uncomfortable with and not excited about a God who didn't get angry. So I...
Nathan (:Hmm
Yes.
Shawn (:I've heard expressed one way that because God is love, God gets angry. And when, you know, again, we should probably return to that in the future, because we don't wanna leave people scared at the end of this episode, but anger is a very important part of God's reality. And it's an appropriate part of our reality when directed in healthy ways and when inspired by appropriate.
Nathan (:Right.
Hmm.
Shawn (:conditions, we'll put it that way.
Nathan (:Well, I mean, look at the beginning of the book. We'll kind of wrap up with this one. The was that line in, uh, see if I can get back to my notes here, that line from. I guess it was Isaiah where Isaiah said, um, and I think Jeremiah has, has lines like this as well, but Isaiah says the streets, uh, your hands are full of blood.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:There's no way that a God who loves so much that he would himself come down and join the human family for the purpose of redemption and restoration. There's no chance that God could look at other human beings being cruel to fellow human beings or animals and not be stirred to the depths of his being.
Shawn (:I'm going to go to bed.
Mm.
Nathan (:And so for us to imagine that God could look on the horrors of the human story without disgust and anger as part of his response would be for us to say that he's not a God of love.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Well put. Well put.
Nathan (:And that's it for this week's episode. Enjoy your reading of Isaiah and getting into the first of Jeremiah, of course, after you finish Ecclesiastes and the exciting lines of Song of Solomon. And we hope that you are seeing more of God's love through this story. God bless you.
Transcribed by Riverside.fm.
