Jeremiah 11—Ezekiel 23 with Shawn & Nathan
Summary
Shawn Brace's blog: https://shawnbrace.substack.com/
In this conversation, Nathan and Shawn discuss various topics related to reading the Bible through in just 13 weeks. This week they focus specifically on Jeremiah 11 through Ezekiel 23. They also discuss listening to the Bible at a faster speed, the emotional journey of Jeremiah, God's "dreams" and human agency, the complexity of God's work, the context of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, the tragic time of the story, the limitations of human language, and the importance of focusing on the author's message. This conversation explores the interpretation of scripture and the role of the Holy Spirit in understanding its meaning. It emphasizes the importance of humility and the belief that anyone can benefit from reading scripture, regardless of their level of education. The conversation also delves into the themes of idolatry, God's faithfulness, and the transformative power of worship. It highlights the moral consequences of idolatry and the Sabbath as an antidote to it. The chapters also touch on the diversity of Bible writers and the goodness of God in the midst of challenging moments.
Takeaways
- Listening to the Bible at a faster speed can help with focus and comprehension.
- Jeremiah's emotional journey reflects the deep connection between the prophet and his people.
- God's dreams for humanity are not always realized due to human agency and the complexity of God's work. The Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in interpreting scripture, and believers should seek the Spirit's guidance.
- Lay people can benefit from reading scripture and do not need a high level of education to understand it.
- Humility is essential when reading scripture, acknowledging the need for an external power to help understand its meaning.
- Idolatry leads to moral decay and exploitation, while worshiping God leads to transformation and alignment with His ways.
- God's faithfulness is evident throughout scripture, even in the midst of challenging moments.
Transcript
Hey, it's Nathan and Sean again. We want to welcome you back to the 13 week Bible season two. Today we're in episode 10 ahead of week nine's reading. As we continue this expansive journey through the Bible in just 13 weeks, we're thoroughly enjoying it ourselves and hope you're finding it helpful as well. Today we're previewing the rest of Jeremiah, all of the lamentations and on through Ezekiel 23.
It's also worth noting that we're rushing down the other side of our journey, ever closer to its conclusion than its beginning. The Jesus story in the gospels is just around the bend. A little more of the New Testament today brings us almost all the way through the significant, uh, the three major prophetic books around the
last years of the Kingdom of Judah. So we'll talk about that. Just briefly, Sean, how are you today?
Shawn (:I'm Will Nathan, how are you? Good to see you again and talk to you.
Nathan (:Yeah, yeah, exactly. It is just for our listeners, we are pre-recording this and we started in 2023, took a break for Christmas and New Year's and now we're back early January, continuing to record here. So we're all well, families are well, so we're good.
Shawn (:That's right.
Absolutely, absolutely. It is good to see you again like I said and to get back into this conversation.
Nathan (:Yeah. So as I've come back into it in the new year, I've used more of a weak approach. In fact, I sped my audio up even faster this time to 150, 150%. And that got me through it fast on my drive time and then left time for me to peruse the books.
which I didn't get sort of so looking at the print text, which unfortunately I didn't get as much time in the print text, but I'm kind of experimenting with that combination of fast audio and then sort of going back and looking at the print highlights in the latter part of the week. It seems for me to be a good combination of being able to sort of.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:hear the whole thing and then go back and reflect on different areas of highlights as I go through that.
Shawn (:Yeah, that's cool. Can I ask a technical question? When you are listening, what are you using to listen? Is there an app, a particular app you're using?
Nathan (:Bible Gateway. I'm sorry. No, not Bible. No, no, that was a mistake. I am using the Bible app, the one from
Shawn (:Bible Gateway.
Yeah, from like, yeah, lecture. So, that's the one I use as well, but and I haven't looked too deeply into it, but I could not figure out for the life of me how to speed up the reading.
Nathan (:Life church. Yeah. Life church. Yep.
Yes, so if you click on the mic, the speaker button, and when you're in the app, if you click on the speaker button in the top corner.
Shawn (:Okay, alright, sorry, this is probably not what you want to... but this is a question that people would have maybe.
Nathan (:Oh no, it's fine. No, it's fine. Exactly. Yeah, so if you click on the speaker button in the top right corner, and then a menu comes up, a small menu just up from the bottom. And at the bottom of that, it has, should say 1.0 on yours. And if you tap that, you can speed it up. Is it there?
Shawn (:Got you. Okay.
Okay, all right.
Yeah, because I'll have to look later because
for some reason... Yeah, yeah, but thank you. Thank you, Nathan. This is...
Nathan (:Okay, okay. Yeah, let me know it is there. Maybe it's not there on the translation you're using. That's a possibility.
Shawn (:Yeah, that is a possibility. Because I, like I said before in previous episodes, I do occasionally, only occasionally listen. But I do read more than I listen. And one of the reasons I did that is because I couldn't figure out how to speed it up. Because it is a lot slower to listen at 1.0 or one time than it is to read it yourself. So,
Nathan (:Right.
Right.
Shawn (:Anyway, yeah, okay, I see. Okay, I got you. I'm with you now, Nathan. I see it. This opens up a whole new world to me. Thank you. That's what we're here for, right?
Nathan (:Oh, amazing. That's what we want to do here. Yeah, I was really surprised that I was actually getting some important insights with the faster speed. Obviously, a person could go so fast that you don't pick. It's just noise. But the speed actually made a positive difference.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:And I think focus too, you mentioned sort of how it's easy to lose, lose focus when you're listening. The faster speed actually helps, uh, my me zero my attention in better than if it's slow. So.
Shawn (:Yeah, yeah, I could see that.
So I'll try that between now and our next episode.
Nathan (:Yeah. And just a couple of other things that I thought were helpful, and you may have a word you'd want to comment on from your journey so far. But something that I thought of this week is what do we learn like about the profit?
kind of incidental to the story because Jeremiah is not written as a self, as an autobiography of Jeremiah's experience. It's a collection of his messages with little moments where his voice comes out. He complains to God about how he's being treated. He talks about his call. So there are these moments, but it's not an autobiography where the whole book sort of focuses on the story of Jeremiah.
But it is curious to kind of pay attention to the moments where the prophet's experience, the prophet's lifestyle, the prophet's voice comes through more personally than kind of the message that he's delivering to the people.
Shawn (:Yeah, I think Jeremiah has been often referred to appropriately enough as the weeping prophet where you can definitely see and hear and feel the pathos, the passion, the deep emotional stirrings of his heart where he's not simply delivering a message from God. I mean these are his people.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:We probably, it's probably hard for us on some level to understand and appreciate the degree to which the people of Israel, their identity was tied up with the nation of Israel. You know, we are highly individualized in our context today and we don't have.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:as big of a group identity, maybe the closest we can relate to it is, and maybe this is a terrible analogy, but it's just where I am, is almost in sports. Like for example, the Olympics, like we feel many, many times a very deep sense of pride and identity with that athlete that is representing our country.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:So we get a sense of pride in, you know, their failure feels like our failure, etc. We might get it to some extent religiously because, you know, when we're a part of a religious community, we do have some sense of identity with that community as a whole and what happens to the religious community as a whole we feel as well. But I don't think...
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:still to the same degree that, because not only did they have that strong sense of emotional identity, but they also did believe from a religious theological perspective that there was significance to a corporate body of Israelites. So that's what jumps out to me when it comes to kind of Jeremiah on a personal level is the degree to which he was.
so incredibly intertwined with the destiny and future, so to speak, of Judah in this case, which was a part of the whole Israel plan on a broader level.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Yeah, and I think as you were talking, you kind of alluded to it, but just the idea for Jeremiah was that this was a nation that was divinely ordained, like God had.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:had organized the Israelites through Abraham. Well, that was the progeny of Abraham and he had delivered them from Egypt and had big dreams for the people of Israel. So I think there was some of that Jeremiah was connecting with. I think that was a big thing for Jeremiah that this was a huge failure because God had big dreams for this people and they were.
Just falling short, completely falling short.
Shawn (:Yeah, 100%. And we kind of, you know, and when we were talking about Isaiah, I don't know if I brought this up, but there were literally places, like Isaiah 5 for example, where there's this vineyard and God has these dreams for the vineyard. He looked for grapes, like he was hoping that something would happen in the vineyard and yeah, it brought forth thorns and, you know,
Nathan (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:didn't lead to a healthy crop. And so you see that in different places where God, yeah, he has dreams. It sounds funny to use that term in reference to God, like God has dreams. And I can't pretend to explain all the ins and outs of how in all knowing, God can have hopes and dreams. But I think scripture does kind of paint that picture where, yeah, God has hopes and dreams for his people. That's not to...
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:It's not to imply because we can get onto the nice here very quickly where as though God is like wholly dependent on us and like it's up to us to kind of bail God out, so to speak. But there is a tension there, I think.
Nathan (:Hmm
There is a tension and we've chatted about it. I think it came up in a text exchange we had something related to this. And I use the word dreams just because it's a more kind of understandable idea where we're recognizing that God's will for humanity, you might say, is not always carried out.
Shawn (:I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Nathan (:And so that's why I convey it. That's where I think the dream language is sort of helpful. This is God's vision for the human family, but the human family doesn't necessarily get on board. And that's part of what we see. Isaiah has pieces of that, this temporal prosperity that Israel never realizes. The...
Book of Ezekiel, which we won't hit on as far as this part of it this week, but the latter part of Ezekiel has references again that to me seem to speak to a temporal prosperity for Israel that again is never realized. So I think that there is, I don't think it's a stretch to see some of these dreams being realized in the revelation scenario of a new heaven and a new earth, which we'll get to at the end
So I think there's some application there, but I do get the sense that there were dreams that God had first people that were temporal, that were in the flow of human history, that were not some future apocalyptic or post apocalyptic vision. So that's where the dream part comes in for me.
Shawn (:I think what you're touching on actually has huge theological implications that comes into dialogue with or maybe in contradiction to certain theological perspectives like a view of God where actually God always gets what God wants and in fact God actually ordains everything that ever happens.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:and you know you and I don't think buy into that perspective and I think it's hard to read the prophet and conclude that God always gets what God wants. Now there are places like in these prophets where you know the analogy is and I think it's Jeremiah the potter and the clay like the potter shapes the clay however the potter wants to and so that was lend itself to this belief that
Nathan (:Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:orchestrating and shaping every little thing that happens to Judah. I don't think that's what the metaphor is trying to fully communicate. I do think again and again you read throughout the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, that God is frustrated. He's legitimately frustrated. It's not just a big fancy theological term.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:anthropomorphism. It's not just ascribing human attributes to God that aren't really true about God. I think it really is. God's frustrated, he's sad, he's disappointed, he had hoped things would go differently, but because human beings truly have agency, truly have freedom, they can unfortunately crush God's dreams. Not that in the end, ultimately,
Nathan (:Hmm.
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:won't all work out because it will. It will ultimately work out, but a lot of the battles, so to speak, in the meantime don't fully align with what God had hoped.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Right. And that just reminds me of the messiness that God is working in the flow of the human story and working with human beings and
because we just started this:How would I say that whatever God does has ramifications, nothing that he does unfolds without implications for some part of the created world.
So, and then if he works in one town, there's implications for say another town. If he works with one nation, there's implications for another nation. If he helps one, so the threads connecting the story together are so complex and vast that it just quickly becomes a mind bending, just to, if you think about it too much, it becomes mind bending.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Hahaha. Yeah.
Well, I mean, very simply, if I'm praying for rain because I want my crops to grow and you're praying for sunshine, you know, if God answers my prayer, He doesn't answer yours. So, I mean, He answers, but He doesn't give you what you want if He's giving me what I want. So, I mean, I'm glad, you know, those types of decisions are way above my pay scale and I'm glad we have an omniscient and all-knowing, that is to say, and an all-powerful God who's
Nathan (:Right.
Right.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:somehow able to and is trying to work out all those dynamics.
Nathan (:Yeah. And you and I do believe we're firm believers in a God who answers prayer, but also embracing, recognizing the fact that this is far more complicated, that when answers don't come at the timing I want them. It shows up in scripture, Daniel, there's a section of Daniel that we'll get to where this comes up. Um, prayers, there are complicated things going on beyond the reach of our prayers.
Shawn (:Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:that affect what happens and how things unfold.
Shawn (:It's a very complicated calculus that God has to work through.
Nathan (:Right, right, yeah. Another thing that is interesting in the story, which we sort of got on a little bit of a side trail there, but these are important side trails. That's one of the reasons we do the podcast is because these are some of the things that we need to think about as we're going through the bigger picture. But what do we learn incidentally about the current or the local culture and circumstances? I think that's interesting as well.
Shawn (:Hehehe Mhm
Nathan (:for instance, the color of, I think it's the Assyrian uniforms is mentioned. Incidentally, I don't remember what the color was, but it was the Assyrian, the garb of the Assyrian soldiers was.
Shawn (:Hahaha
Nathan (:noted again it was incidental to the book nothing and Jeremiah was not making a point to talk about the Assyrians specifically but in the process of delivering his message that came up.
Shawn (:Yeah, no, those are, you're sounding like a good historian because, you know, when you are looking at history and data, you ask those types of questions. Like, what is what can I learn about the audience to whom I'm writing
or their writing and what can I learn about the person who's writing? And, yeah, all those types of things have
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:Little relative value, but they do fill in the picture for sure.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah 10, that was last week's reading. And I wanted to just touch base real quick because we're entering a really significant era with the writings of Jeremiah and before that Isaiah. So Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, they're like these three major prophets.
The ministry of Isaiah begins with King Aziah, goes through Hezekiah. The ministry of Jeremiah begins with the reign of Josiah, who came after Hezekiah, and then goes into the 11th year of Zedekiah, so that's the captivity. Jeremiah ends up living through and into the captivity period.
by the Babylonians. And then there is Ezekiel. So Ezekiel and Jeremiah do have some overlap, but Ezekiel is lodged among the exiles rather than being with the people of Judah.
And part of the reason this is important is because, you know, last week's reading started in the kingdom, the United Kingdom period, in the sense that Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon were products of that era. And now we've shifted dramatically with Isaiah and now Jeremiah and Ezekiel into this time where the whole thing is finally collapsing and falling under Babylonian
power, like this big dream that Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon are in the early stages of, it's almost unraveled. And it's unraveling in the time of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. And I think that's just powerful to think about as we're reading the books to understand the time in which these prophets are speaking. Why is Jeremiah called the weeping prophet?
because he's living at the time when his people are falling apart because they're determined to worship idols.
And that habit is finally coming to bear fruit. So big Solomon even, you know, if we go back and think about last week's reading, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon reminds us of King Solomon, his idolatrous playing with idolatry, plant seeds, seeds that were planted in Egypt, in fact, as we find out in our reading, but then were nurtured.
by Solomon were nurtured by other kings. And now those seeds begin to bear dramatic fruit in this timeframe. Israel's already, Israel falls during Isaiah's ministry, that the 10 tribes of Israel, they fall during Isaiah's ministry, but then Judah falls during Jeremiah and Ezekiel's ministry. So just a tragic, we're in a tragic time of the story.
Shawn (:Absolutely, that may be an understatement, just a terrible, terrible time. And I do like your point, and I think it's good to underscore this, just the, even the geographical context from which Jeremiah and Ezekiel write. You know, you have one person who is in captivity,
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Shawn (:not in captivity, he's still in Judah, in Jeremiah. So their perspective, and I know, you know, to some people this might be a strange thought, but the writers of scripture, inspired of God, yes, but their writing is within the context of a specific location and all that. So their perspectives are gonna be a little different and they're gonna be concerned with a little different, you know, issues. And, you know, as we...
Nathan (:Yes.
Yes.
Shawn (:As we get to the end of Jeremiah, I'm sure we'll touch on this a little bit, you know, Jeremiah then finds himself in Egypt and with a lot of the rest of the Judeans and he, you know, he has concerns about Egypt now and he's critiquing Egypt and then he directs his concerns at other nations as well. So yeah, all those things contribute to our understanding of the message and the story.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:story where we find ourselves.
Nathan (:Right. One of the things I was thinking about, forgot, and now remembered, I think is this is a good spot to bring it up. You mentioned the location of the prophets, that the prophets operated in a certain context and spoke to that context. We talked earlier about the Potter example. I think it's worth acknowledging that human language has limits, that as the writers write,
Shawn (:Mm.
Mm.
Nathan (:if it's a story or a statement, whatever it might be, has a point it's making and has other points it is not making. Hang on, I gotta get this pager. I'll have to fix this. I'm gonna step away and I've got my work pagers just buzzing. I'll have to cut this part out.
Shawn (:the
Okay.
Nathan (:I was hoping I could ignore it and I'm hoping it doesn't mess things up. It could mean a little extra editing. But so, so the prophets were speaking a specific point. So the potter point, there was a point, but then there were other things that the prophet was not saying.
Shawn (:Mmhmm. Yeah, we can, I mean, we'll talk about that perhaps when we get to the Gospels as well, because it's really easy, and I'm very tempted to do this myself.
to take a parable of Jesus and soak it for every little theological point I want to make. And the reality is maybe it's not trying to make all those other points, it's just trying to make a big point. And so yeah, that's a huge, huge thing.
Nathan (:Yes.
And the key thing that you said is every point I want to make. I think it's being, you know, I think of it sort of as if you have a transparent screen with text on it.
Shawn (:Exactly.
Nathan (:and your eye focuses on the text. Let's say it's a pane of glass with lettering on it. The message is on the pane of glass. You can stare through the pane of glass and see whatever's behind, but that actually has nothing to do with the message on the pane of glass. So I think it's sort of being aware that there is a dimension. There's maybe a multi-dimensional, in some cases, message, but then there's out-of-focus stuff
could be extracted but has nothing to do with the actual point of the author. I just think that's really important just to keep in mind. One of the reasons why I find the 13-week the rapid reading helps me because I get to see themes, I get to see big, I get to see verses in context more, I get to see how
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:different writers address the same issue. And the balance that adds for me is, I just think priceless. Cause I have seen so much preaching within my own denominational circle and outside the denomination, some really exciting stuff. But then you look at the text, the underlying text and just an honest, careful read of the text.
demonstrates that the author's point was not validated by the text. Maybe the point is perfectly valid, like perfectly legitimate, but the evidence for that point is lacking from the text used to argue it. And that's, I think we have to be careful with that.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
So, Nathan, we could chase a rabbit here, which I think is a very important one. And I don't want to, you know, throw a wrench into this discussion, but are you implying, because if I'm a lay person sitting in a pew and I just, you know, I open my Bible and I'm just happy to read, you know, whatever. Like I think I would...
perhaps be discouraged in thinking, man, I guess I have to have a PhD in biblical studies in order to interpret it correctly. It sounds a lot more complicated and can't I just read what's on the page and get out of it whatever I need to get out of it for the day and if I need to be encouraged, I can pull a word of encouragement out of it and stuff like that. So again, that's perhaps...
a very long conversation, but I'm just, you know, what you're saying makes me think of that question that might naturally arise.
Nathan (:I think it's a good and fair question and I would say that
know, Jesus made this statement, I think it's in John seven, if anybody who wants to know, um, I think it's who wants to know the doctrine will understand it. So I think that's where we can count on the Holy Spirit. I think there is some latitude, some safe latitude for sort of reading a passage and benefiting from it personally. I would say that some caution is in, is, um, is also
Shawn (:of my doctrine.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:needs to be brought to the table because we can. I mean, if you read a text that says, um, Oh, there was a really, Oh, the text Judas went and hanged himself. And then the guy went in and found another Bible text and it said, go down, do likewise. So that's a, you know, that's a humorous kind of crazy example, but it's not so far fetched in the fact that if, if we, if we don't really try to be
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:responsible Bible students. We don't need a PhD. We just need to aim to be responsible and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance.
live in the big picture of scripture, and if we're living in the big picture of scripture, seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance, living in community with others, those are corrective supports that I may get some wild idea. I've had my share of wild ideas. I will also get something from a text that is clearly not the author's point, but it speaks to my heart and it fits. The conclusion fits within the big picture of scripture.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
I'm sorry.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:It's not the correct interpretation, you might say, of that passage, but it is a reasonable application in the larger, like it is in harmony with the will of God, the purpose of God.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:And so it's a, in the big picture, it's a safe, inspirational thought, even though the passage itself is not teaching that. Those are the things where I think that, you know, that's okay. As long as we recognize, hey, I'm being inspired by the text, may not be in this case, the point of the author, but it's moving me toward God and moving me in the journey. I don't know if that helps, but that's kind of where I'm at on it.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, this is a topic I would love to spend hours talking about because I think it's so important and it's one that I'm still wrestling with. I tried my hand at kind of this discussion about how I read the Bible and I put it on my newsletter, which perhaps we could link to or something. But anyway, it's such a hugely important topic that I don't want people to be disappointed.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:about reading scripture thinking that they need to have some you know high level advanced degree in order to understand it but neither do I want people to be reductionist or simplistic in their reading of scripture. I think I think the Bible is simple enough where anyone can understand the most critical parts of God's story but I also think it's deep enough
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Right.
Shawn (:and complicated enough where we will never grow bored with it, right? So that's the cool tension, I think.
Nathan (:Right.
Yes, send me that link. I'd be happy to include it in the show notes for today's podcast. And I think the other piece to keep in mind is Jesus specifically promised the Holy Spirit as a guide. And so just recognizing that as followers of Jesus, we believe in the presence of supernatural alien insight through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Shawn (:What do? What do?
Hmm.
Nathan (:I don't know if the Holy Spirit can be considered an alien because God is the, you know, inhabits, this is his home, the universe is his home. But we do believe in supernatural insight. Like we are not in some PhD program trying to sort this out on our own. So I think that should be a comfort that we do use the cautions, like do our best to be responsible, but realize that.
Shawn (:Hehehehe
Nathan (:the Holy Spirit is eager and willing to guide anybody who's open to it. And that having a PhD doesn't mean I get it right. There are plenty of theologians who are atheists.
Shawn (:Yeah, a lot. A lot of them.
Nathan (:So, you know, I think that's another caution that if I do have a strong mind, you might say, you know, maybe I score in the genius category. That doesn't at all guarantee that I'm going to get anything valuable from scripture.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
I think to me the bottom line is, and I wrote this in the piece that I was talking about, the bottom line is the most important part of reading the Bible to me is humility. Whether you have a PhD or you don't have a third grade education, having humility and saying I need, as you said, an alien power, and when you mean alien in the broadest sense of the term, a power outside of myself.
Nathan (:Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:to help me understand what I'm reading. And so if we have that humility, if we are, we have, we can have a certain confidence that we feel pretty good about things we're reading, but also a certain level of self doubt that we understand what we're reading as well. So that humility to me is the single most important ingredient when reading scripture and really doing anything.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, I just was thinking about the Bible writers themselves. You think of the Gospels.
One's written by a doctor, but three are written by, well, two are written by fishermen. And no, I'm wrong. I'm getting ahead of myself. Peter, yes, thank you. Yeah, I just, I realized I wasn't quite ready to make that statement. But that just goes to say, though, that the variety here, these are people that are, that we're reading as authorities on God and what it means to follow.
Shawn (:and
Tax collector. Tax collector, a doctor, and two fishermen. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nathan (:And yet they came from a wide variety of variations. There's a prophet in the Old Testament, one of the pre-Jesus prophets, who's a shepherd. One of the tiny prophets that we'll come to as we get past Ezekiel. But.
Shawn (:Mm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:Again, a reminder that yes, humility, I love that, Sean. We're just gonna leave it at that and keep moving. I think that's probably the best word. Holy Spirit and humility, I think those are the two best words in reading scripture and following with courage, because God has given this for us to understand and the teacher, and if we're open to it, we'll get it. We'll get what we need for the moment.
Shawn (:Mm, mm, mm.
Good work.
Nathan (:And we'll have to grow. They all did. That's part of the story too, as they didn't get it right the first time necessarily, but they got enough to take the next step.
Shawn (:Good word, good word.
Nathan (:So back in the text specifically, just thinking again about these three prophets, I wanted to dwell on that a little bit. We've talked about the timeframe, we've talked about their location, all three prophets and Sean mentioned this, but they addressed other nations occasionally. So that's an interesting thing. On this nation thing, it's fascinating that I get the sense that,
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:The nation's story is basically human civilizations get the chance to get it right with how they treat people. After a certain timeframe, when those human civilizations engage in repeated violations of human beings and even of the natural world,
Shawn (:Mmm.
Nathan (:At some point, God says, okay, you've kind of worn out your opportunity to get this right. That's kind of the flavor that seems to come up with the Canaanites, with the Egyptians, even with the Babylonians, with the Assyrians, with Israel. The only exception to Israel is God says, at least that I've picked up, and Sean, you can help me here, but the idea that God says,
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:The other nations, well, I'm not sure I get this totally right, but anyway, the idea that God's going to restore Israel. But even as I'm saying that, I'm remembering that there seems to be an indication where God says he's going to restore other nations as well as they come back to realign with him to turn from their destructive.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Wicked ways.
Nathan (:actions, their wicked ways, right, to the harm they're bringing to others that God is going to restore them. So again, that's just a, yeah, speak to that because
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Well, no, I mean to that last point, we see that certainly with Jonah and the Ninevites, right? God brings them to a place of restoration and repentance. Now, as you say, it is predicated on them choosing to align with God's righteous ways and ways of love. But yeah, I think we do see that.
You know, Isaiah talks about all nations coming up to Jerusalem. And then, you know, in some ways, he's also, the Hebrew scriptures are kind of pointing forward to a time when the light will go to the Gentiles, use that term. And we saw that in Isaiah. And, you know, just this idea that God's ultimate plan all along.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Shawn (:was that Israel would simply be a microcosm of the whole world. That they were called initially, as one Old Testament scholar put it, God initially gives a very exclusive call for optimally inclusive ends. So he calls Abraham, he calls Israel an exclusive call.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:Not that God didn't care about the rest of the nations, but precisely because He did care about them, He called these specific people so that they could mediate His love, they could mediate His law, they could spread His law, they could spread His love to these other nations so that they too could be brought into that way of living and that way of love. So yeah, God always had...
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:his, had the other nations in his sights and to the degree that they were willing to align with his way of love, he was working in and through them. Of course, he ultimately wants them to explicitly acknowledge and recognize his ways, but you know, he is working with the best that he can at the moment.
Nathan (:Right, so on that topic, idolatry is a big issue in Jeremiah. I think it's a big issue in Ezekiel, and I mean, I think you could say it's a big issue in Ezekiel as well as Isaiah, that this idea. And so what's interesting is idolatry isn't.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:an issue simply because it's displacing God from the imagination, the attention of the people. Idolatry is an issue specifically because it degrades, it morally degrades the nation, the human being. So the big issue is God says, the streets are full of blood. You are robbing the poor.
the leaders are just exercising wanton cruelty. And then the reason for this is because they rejected God's covenant and pursued the gods of other nations, which as Jeremiah makes very clear, are no gods at all. Fascinating to listen to how many times and how explicitly God tries to dislodge the...
obsession with idols that the people of Israel have developed.
Shawn (:You know it's interesting along those lines, we're jumping way ahead here in the text, but Ezekiel 22, kind of the last chapter in this section or the second to last chapter, what's fascinating is God does lay this charge at His people and He says,
Nathan (:Hmm.
Shawn (:They have made light of father and mother in your midst. They have oppressed the stranger in you. They have mistreated the fatherless in the widow." And then the very next verse, verse 8, Ezekiel 22, you have despised my holy things and profaned my Sabbath. So it's fascinating that God directly connects the Sabbath and
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:this sort of these injustices that are carried out. And I think it's the Sabbath that kind of is the antidote to idolatry because in the Sabbath, we implicitly acknowledge the creator who is the singular, you know, almighty creator. So we implicitly say, I am acknowledging that you as Lord and creator and God. And so,
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Shawn (:That is an antidote to idolatry, when we practice the rhythm of Sabbath. And then it is also on another level, an act of compassion and justice towards others, because in the Sabbath, we extend rest to other people, and we give up on the tyranny of production. And so it's just really fascinating to me, to your point.
Nathan (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:Idolatry is a huge issue that leads to moral decay and corruption, the abuse of other people, and the practice of Sabbath is an awesome way to step outside of that idolatrous living and that exploitative living.
Nathan (:Yes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so a plug for Love Shaped Life and our course catalog, we will have at least one whole course devoted to the Sabbath and its implications in the redemption project.
Shawn (:Mm.
Nathan (:I think what the point you make is really important. Sometimes we can look at the practices in scripture, don't worship idols, honor the Sabbath, and we can look at them as sort of optional kind of religious zeal practices. But what the prophets reveal and what the human story reveals is that
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:These practices aren't about God sort of leveraging his authority over human beings, but these practices are intimately connected to human beings simply being good, decent, moral beings. That ultimately a society that abandons the practices of being in relationship with God, that society is going to unravel. It's just a matter of time. That's true of.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:The history of China, it's true of the United States of America, it's true of of, um, Zimbabwe, it's true of Russia, it's true of any nation. That's one thing that hit me is like the, the story of nations is a reciprocal story or, or repeating story, I should say, of the same process. A group of people get a chance to, to get loving, right?
Shawn (:Russia.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:and they get the tools. God's communicated the principles, he's communicated the knowledge of himself so that human beings have a fighting chance at building a civilized civilization. But over time as that civilization engages in brutality and disregard of human life and abuse of power, God releases that civilization to the demise of their own actions. And that's
this big part of the story is that God begins to step back and allows other nations to come in, which is a whole other part of Ezekiel that hopefully we can touch on in Ezekiel. When we talk about Ezekiel is God's engagement in the story and his engagement with one nation to bring punishment on another nation. What does it mean when that language comes up in scripture? So hopefully we can touch on that in.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm. What?
Nathan (:episode 11.
Shawn (:Well, I did want to point out and make it clear another theme though that runs throughout the prophets and especially Jeremiah, Lamentations we get it, Ezekiel to some extent as well, is God's faithfulness, right? Because you know, especially that Jeremiah 29, one of the most well-known passages in probably the Old Testament that's often quoted out of context.
Nathan (:Mmm, yes, yes.
Shawn (:I'm not saying it's wrong, but you can appreciate the idea even more when you understand the context where he says, I know the thoughts I have towards you. I know the plans I have for you, thoughts of peace and not of evil to give you a future and a hope. And so this is in the midst of captivity. They are in Babylon and Jeremiah is sending a message to them. He's saying, hey, just settle down. You're going to be there for 70 years, but I'm faithful.
Nathan (:Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:I know this is not going to fully disrupt my plans for you. We're gonna get there. You know, lamentation is the same thing. Kind of the climax of the book is, great is thy faithfulness, right? His mercies are new every day. And along those same lines, a line that comes up a few times in Jeremiah is this term, the Lord our righteousness. So again, it's an acknowledgement.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Shawn (:that yes, we have been unfaithful, but we're not gonna get ourselves out of this mess on our own. We are not going to perform our way into redemption. We are not going to perform our way out of captivity. Yes, our performance has been terrible. Yes, we've abused people, we've exploited people, we have used people, we have been unrighteous, but the way to get ourselves out of this
Nathan (:Right, that's right.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:is not to dig our own way out, but to rely on the faithfulness and the righteousness of God.
Nathan (:Right.
So this brings us back to idolatry, right? Idolatry is an act of worship. So when the act of worship is directed at idols, it is morally deforming. When our worship turns to God in heaven, to the creator, that becomes a morally forming experience that then transforms a person from self-interested,
Shawn (:Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:selfless and begins to move them in that direction of loving others. Right? I mean, is that what you're getting at? So there's a change in worship.
Shawn (:Yeah, that's definitely part of what I'm getting at. And part of that change of worship is an implicit and maybe even explicit acknowledgement that my salvation, I use that in the broadest sense of the term, my redemption, my deliverance, my righteousness, my power and strength reside outside of myself. That it's dependent on...
Nathan (:Yes.
Shawn (:the faithfulness of this Almighty God, that I can't do it myself, that we collectively can't do it ourselves. Yeah, when we come to a place of acknowledging the all-pervasive power of God, it transforms me, but that transformation itself, and I, you know, I hesitate to kind of use this language, but I think there's a truth to it. It's a fruit of my dependence on God and not...
Nathan (:Right.
Shawn (:kind of the cause of God's dependence, so to speak.
Nathan (:Yes. And I would say that true worship always brings us to exactly the place you're describing.
Shawn (:Mm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:Because true worship illuminates my incapacity, my failures, and my lack of capacity, and the wonder of God, the grace of God, the beauty of God, which comes up again, you mentioned it comes up, there's Jeremiah 29, which is grace. I have it labeled as grace. There's Ezekiel 11 and 36, new heart language. That's right along the lines of what you're talking about, that God gives human beings something outside of themselves.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm.
Mmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (:That is, that then leads to actions that align with his purpose, his way of love. Um, Isaiah sick Ezekiel 16, God's love.
Shawn (:Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
That's quite a chapter, man.
Nathan (:Ezekiel 18 and 20, God explaining his reasoning. I just find it fascinating as I'm listening through.
Um, we got to wrap up here, but Ezekiel was, uh, when we took a pause before the holidays or because of the holidays, I was in Ezekiel and Ezekiel was, it's an intense book. Ezekiel is writing from the Babylon, the side of the captivity in, uh, the Babylonian kingdom and wow, it's feels so just heavy. But what struck me as I'm thinking about Isaiah, Jeremiah,
Shawn (:There.
Nathan (:Ezekiel is the fact that God is communicating so many times and so clearly the cause and the consequences for me was this aha moment of saying, wow, even though it's heavy, this is, this is like example number one or whatever you want to say of God's goodness.
The fact that he's explaining himself, the fact that he's persistent, that he didn't just kick him out at the first infraction, the fact that it's come to human sacrifice, this thing that God says, that didn't even come into my mind. The fact that he endures that long tells me that he's really truly, he respects human freedom, and he's really truly in it because he loves people, and he wants the best. And so even though the messages become heavy,
out of God's desperation to right the ship before it's hopeless. And I just saw that heaviness as evidence of God's goodness, heavy because the story is truly the historical moment is truly a heavy moment, especially on the shoulders of those who are on the margins, those who don't have power.
And, and it's heavy because this thing is really falling off, falling off the rails, falling apart and heavy because God longs for something better and can do something better if human beings will just consent to him doing his thing.
Shawn (:Yeah, that's beautiful, Nathan. I think that very beautifully and wonderfully sums up what we've been looking at. And, you know, if I were to pick a chapter that kind of encapsulates all that we've been talking about, you just mentioned it and I threw in my quick endorsement, but Ezekiel 16 is quite a chapter where God kind of gives an overview of His history with
with Judah and Israel and he's talking about how he basically called them and they weren't worthy of, they were just this kind of pathetic little nation and God called them and he grew them up, he gave them everything, he said it was their time for love and he basically gave them everything they needed to succeed and then they used those resources to kind of prostitute themselves out to other nations.
Nathan (:Mm-hmm.
Shawn (:and they've been unfaithful, and he even says their sins are more wicked than the surrounding nations. And yet, God says, kind of the climax, nevertheless, verse 60, I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. So God's like, like you say, he's recapped the whole history. But he's, he's
Nathan (:Yeah.
Hmm.
Shawn (:He's not giving up on them. And that is a powerful message that I think just really resonates deeply with my heart and my mind.
Nathan (:Yep.
I think it's a great just recognition that the story of scripture, even in the darkest moments is permeated and saturated with the goodness of God. It's hard to see because the moments are hard, but when you pause and think about it, you just can't avoid seeing it. You can't unsee it once you start to see the faithlessness and goodness of God. Sean, that was a great word. Thank you for bringing that up. Ezekiel 16 about God's incredible power.
Shawn (:Mm.
Nathan (:goodness. Yes, that's all for this week. So until next time, lean into the love-shaped life. May your journey through scripture be an expanding discovery of the wonder of God's love.
Shawn (:You bet. Powerful stuff.
